A reasonable 45 minute drive for an event that was seemingly well-organized, spanning about six hours. Six ten-man squads rotating through six stages that included shots out to 125 yards, and a pretty slick "shoot house".

I used a MK25 and a 16" AR15 with a SF Mini; both with iron sights.

Being my first match, and knowing my handgun shortcomings, I opted to take it slow, prioritizing accuracy as best I could. This made for a pretty "clean" match, but a low ranking, due to my slow cumulative time. I ended up with one "failure to engage" (overlooked a target) and two "failure to neutralize" (only ended up with one of the two required hits on a target). No "procedural errors" (which was a damn miracle) and never hit a "non threat".

The scoring system seems pretty even, in that it doesn't seem to favor speed over accuracy (or accuracy over speed); but evenly takes both into account. I did finish near the bottom of the pack, due to my slow time. I did have a good-many fewer penalties than some of the higher-scoring participants though.

One big take-away was the value of "blind" scenarios. I incorporate blind aspects into my training wherever possible, as I think it serves to illuminate deficiencies in fundamental techniques/tactics. Only one of these stages was "blind": the shoot house. You couldn't game it as easily. I say "as easily" because the gamers still gamed it by charging through to quickly find and shoot the targets, as opposed to a more cautious approach to a building clearance; though something can always be said for speed and violence (but the "rush to your death" phrase was also coined for a reason). Ironically, this was not the stage in which I overlooked a target, as there were many spots one could have hidden.

A safety gave me a couple pointers on procedural stuff, and even saved me from what would have been a rough penalty incurred by a failure to engage two targets. Both procedural tips were concerning my pistol. When clearing the pistol, the verbal commands were something like "unload, show clear, slide forward, hammer down". I used the decocker for most of the day, to comply with the "hammer down" command; just out of habit. At maybe the fifth stage, a safety said to pull the trigger, as opposed to using the decocker, as that would safely expend a round that both of us missed; makes sense.

The other pointer concerned my holster. I have an old ACU-patterned Blackhawk nylon "gun bucket" hip holster, which I ride high, with just one leg strap. I use this because I often have a PEQ14 on the bottom rail (replaced it with TLR for the match), and I need that space and flexibility, and I don't want to pay out the ass for a nicer holster. Anyway, it has straps on the top, which fall back in, obscuring the holster opening. When re-holstering, I need to use my off hand to manipulate these straps, so that they're out of the way. Sometimes, the way that I do this causes mew to sweep the muzzle over/past my fingers. It doesn't bother me, as it's always an empty (in the context of the match) or decocked gun, but the safety said that it is something I could be disqualified for, if I don't change my technique.

Overall, I enjoyed it. My squad was mostly regular dudes. Other squads had both more tactical guys, and more two/three-gun-looking guys (with the athletic apparel and equipment carts). Some folks seemed more laid back; others more serious.

I didn't have any real revelatory moments. I was more than satisfied with my pistol performance, considering I don't practice much with a pistol, and my rifle performance was what I'd expect, with the limitation of iron sights. If I attend another (the next one is in March) I intend to maintain the deliberate approach; not abandoning what I believe to be realistic tactics in the name of speed. However, I'll certainly be comfortable going a little faster, now that I at least know how the whole thing operates.

If there's a next time, I will likely use my 10.5" gun that is my regular carbine. I waited too long to submit my 5320.20, so I couldn't bring it to this one. I would have shot irons either way, but it would have been nice to use my regular rifle. I am also considering shooting my EDC Taurus TCP. I'd need to get a hip holster for it, and a couple more mags, but I think it would be fantastic way to get better with my carry gun. It would be rough ride though; I'm not entirely sure it's even accurate enough for some of the longer shots. The MK25 is my nightstand gun, with a light/laser and silencer (not equipped for the match), but it isn't a gun I otherwise carry, when I do any other sort of practice or training. The TCP is always in my front right pocket.

I did have two malfunctions out of my rifle. I worked through both of them promptly and, after the second, I determined the cause and implemented a remedy. The 16" gun in question has a rifle length gas system. It was just a smidge undergassed, to be riding on my usual lower, which has a Sprinco red spring and H3 buffer. It would chamber the first round on a fresh 30rd mag fine, but the resistance of that 29th round's spring pressure caused the bolt to short-stroke so that said round would be allowed to advance enough that the front of the carrier would try to "feed" it, causing a jam. I short-loaded my remining mags, and the problem wasn't seen again.

I'll add more later, if/when I recall other aspects.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

Sounds like fun!

A couple of coments:

quote:

I used the decocker for most of the day, to comply with the "hammer down" command; just out of habit. At maybe the fifth stage, a safety said to pull the trigger, as opposed to using the decocker, as that would safely expend a round that both of us missed; makes sense.

I hear his argument in his context, but I disagree. I much prefer your method, and think you should maintain your good habit. The gun is designed to be decocked with the decocker. In the real world, when you're done with an engagement, you should be decocking with the decocker. You don't have the luxury of being able to dry-fire (or maybe live-fire !) downrange into a safe backstop, and you shouldn't condition yourself to do it. If you're trying to view the match as a training scenario (which from what I know of you, you likely are), it's important to train with the gun in the manner that it was meant to be operated. Getting used to decocking every time you come off target is vital, and if you don't train for it (or train improperly) it's easy to overlook and presents a significant safety concern...I can't tell you how many times I've caught guys holstering cocked DA/SA Sigs. To his safety concern, if the gun is properly decocked and holstered, it's safe regardless of whether you missed a round or not.

quote:

I have an old ACU-patterned Blackhawk nylon "gun bucket" hip holster, which I ride high, with just one leg strap. I use this because I often have a PEQ14 on the bottom rail (replaced it with TLR for the match), and I need that space and flexibility, and I don't want to pay out the ass for a nicer holster. Anyway, it has straps on the top, which fall back in, obscuring the holster opening. When re-holstering, I need to use my off hand to manipulate these straps, so that they're out of the way. Sometimes, the way that I do this causes mew to sweep the muzzle over/past my fingers. It doesn't bother me, as it's always an empty (in the context of the match) or decocked gun, but the safety said that it is something I could be disqualified for, if I don't change my technique.

Look on ebay for a used Safariland ALS duty holster like a 6360 or something similar. They can be found used really cheap (especially the non-red dot models), offer excellent retention, and allow for easy and safe one-handed reholstering. I just did a search on eBay for "Safariland Sig P226" and there were a bunch of options out there in the $20-$50 price range that would be perfect for what you're trying to do.

Based on what I am seeing here...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/22575...tkp%3ABk9SR7C134WYYw

...I don't think this will accommodate the PEQ14, but it'd be perfect for match-use, with the TLR. Thanks for the tip on the nomenclature. Still a bit spendy, as that one appears to be new. I didn't see any used lightbearing units, for the 226.

Here's one (the paddle can easily be swapped out for a belt loop if that's what you prefer...I've even bought some holsters for guns that I don't own equipped with the QLS quick-detach system on ebay for $20-25 just to get the QLS hardware:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/17613...tkp%3ABk9SR9yx1oeYYw


or if you really don't give a crap what it looks like:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/25635...tkp%3ABk9SR96x1oeYYw

Lots more if you do some looking.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
I hear his argument in his context, but I disagree. I much prefer your method, and think you should maintain your good habit.

That was my immediate thought as well. Pulling the trigger to ensure a gun is unloaded is just a terrible practice. Without wishing to discount the value of competitive shooting myself, that practice is something that the “haters” who pontificate about how competitive practices can lead to bad habits could easily focus on.

It’s not something I’ve ever given any thought to, but if it’s absolutely necessary for the trigger to be pulled after checking the chamber, perhaps it could be a distinct, separate step. E.g., both shooter and RO examine the chamber* and then the shooter is directed to aim at one of the downrange targets and then pull the trigger. I certainly wouldn’t get into the habit of releasing the slide and then immediately pulling the trigger to drop the hammer or uncock a striker fired pistol.

* And that really should be enough; that’s how we do it in any other situation. Plus to take it a step further, how carefully do we inspect the chamber if we’re depending upon pulling the trigger to ensure it’s empty?

As a possibly related thought, one competition or training safety technique I saw in the “brutality” series is to end a stage with one shot that’s fired after the magazine is removed from the gun. That ensures there can be no live ammunition in the weapon regardless of how it’s checked. That wouldn’t be feasible for many types of activities, but is something that struck me.

But thanks again for one of your excellent detailed, analytical posts. A fine description of your experience and thoughts.

I agree with hammer down on an empty chamber on many levels. For one, just about all shooters tend to over credit themselves on ability. Words like “been shooting all my life” or was “in the army” get thrown around as qualifiers to skill or ability. When someone tells me either of those I will generally cringe. Because the level of gun handling is always lacking. And the shooting sports thankfully attracts all types. Hammer down on an empty chamber puts everyone on a level field.

I also enjoy it because it is the only time that I get a free opportunity to get my life together in a match. I get a free dry fire where I have nothing to do but align the sights and press off that perfect shot. No stressers, no expectations. I just get to enjoy the process. And sometimes in a match that alone is worth the price of admission. A reset on my own private island between stages.

YMMV.

quote:

I get a free dry fire where I have nothing to do but align the sights and press off that perfect shot.

That's a good way to think about it. Make good use of the required trigger press.

That's not a bad way to look at it, especially if you're deliberately treating it as a dry-fire exercise and not complacently just pointing downrange and pulling the trigger. It's the mindless establishment of rote patterns that concerns me...the act in itself is harmless.

quote:

both shooter and RO examine the chamber* and then the shooter is directed to aim at one of the downrange targets and then pull the trigger.

I've attended many competitions where the "Show Clear" command entails pulling the trigger on an empty chamber. At none of these matches/stages is there a prohibition against aiming at a target while pulling the trigger. So feel free to do so.

As to why that is the command, Bruce Gray used to tell a great story, during classes. about a Master Class shooter who didn't follow through with the process, of pulling the trigger to insure that the chamber was empty, until he was putting his gun away at home. Turns out he had broken the extractor on his last shot...it cost him the price of several Armani suits in his closet

quote:

As to why that is the command, Bruce Gray used to tell a great story, during classes. about a Master Class shooter who didn't follow through with the process, of pulling the trigger to insure that the chamber was empty, until he was putting his gun away at home. Turns out he had broken the extractor on his last shot...it cost him the price of several Armani suits in his closet

And that's exactly my problem with it. I've seen it done many times at my local club, and with many shooters it just becomes a range theatric. Instead of actually taking the time to deliberately inspect that the gun is clear and then consciously dry-fire, it becomes an automated response for both parties as the R/O rattles off a command and the shooter mindlessly performs. The guy in the story doubly screwed up, because he didn't actually follow through on the range, and then dropped the hammer at home without first checking to ensure that his gun was clear.

Complacency breeds mistakes. I've definitely seen it in myself. I have yet to put a hole in the wall, but I'm definitely guilty of getting sucked into mindless patterns of behavior. Once you've done something hundreds of times with the same outcome, it becomes very easy to stop paying attention to the details. If I'm going to condition myself to do a particular thing then I at least want to condition the correct pattern. But I like Jones's approach as well because it's thoughtful and deliberate, and focuses you on what your gun is doing. It's more about the mindset than the action itself.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
it becomes an automated response for both parties as the R/O rattles off a command and the shooter mindlessly performs.

I haven’t participated in many competitions that had designated safety officers whose job was to ensure that other people were handling their guns properly, including that they were unloaded after a stage of fire. But my recollection of those experiences I have had was what led me to believe that competition procedures can easily become habits involving thoughtless actions, and that’s what I got from the description of the incident that reportedly involved a broken extractor and the ruined suits.

The thing the Bruce Gray story clearly demonstrated was that neither the shooter nor the RO properly performed his duty to themselves and especially to others which was to actually check the gun to ensure that it was unloaded after the stage. If the safety procedure included a “Show clear” command, which presumably it did if there was a safety officer and no “pull the trigger” command, it had obviously become a meaningless go through the motions ritual that wasn’t properly performed by either person. Had the process of actually checking to see that a gun is unloaded been performed as it should be, and not only during formal competitions at designated ranges, but every time a gun is handled anytime, anywhere, and without the supposed benefit of a second observer, it would have made no difference that the trigger wasn’t pulled as a final check at the range that time.

I have never seen anyone use the procedure described by jljones for the “hammer down” portion of a safety check, but if someone uses it and thereby avoids developing a bad habit otherwise, great. In any situation, though, becoming accustomed to relying on a trigger pull to ensure a gun is unloaded is a terrible habit. The only way to be absolutely certain that a firearm is unloaded is to remove or check the magazine and check by sight or if necessary by feel that the chamber is empty.

As a final comment, I’ll point out that pulling the trigger and not having a discharge result is not an absolute guarantee that there is no cartridge in the chamber. Even ignoring revolvers, I have had many experiences with ammunition that didn’t fire the first time the primer was struck, but did fire the second time. That’s rare, but is certainly far more common than having an extractor break just at the right time to leave a live round in a chamber at the end of a match. So, no, a final trigger pull and hammer or striker hit does not prove that a gun is unloaded.

I guess anything can be controversial.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
or if you really don't give a crap what it looks like:

That one would be perfect for a mod I've done on a few of those older, beat up Safariland duty holsters I've gotten cheap. Remove all hardware and screws. Degrease and then scuff it all over with some 20 grit sandpaper -that one being basket weave to start with is a bonus. Get a bolt of 500D Cordura in whatever color or camo pattern you want, should cost about $15 or less on Amazon, or if you're really cheap, you can get some 9X sized khakis in the color of your choice at Goodwill and cut them apart so you're working with a big, flat area with no seams. Just make sure whatever fabric you use is 100% polyester. Can of 3m Super 90 adhesive spray. Spray both the fabric and the holster, and begin to wrap it tightly, pressing as you go. I use a Sharpie, the stub end and the cap tip both work well for working the fabric into all the recesses and crannies. When you have a seam in the back, cut it so there's as little overlap as possible. Trim the edges with a razor blade. When it it's mostly set, hit all the edges with an open flame to prevent fraying. If you did it carefully, it should look like it came from the factory that way, and basically brand new.

Nice, I think we need some pics of that!

Where the "hammer down" thing is concerned, I think it's safe to say that DA/SA guns represent a minority at these events. That being said, a striker-fired user would have no choice but to pull the trigger (unless he's equipped with a P99 or similar weapon); a 1911 user would likely just pull the trigger, instead of deliberately pinching the hammer to let it down. So, the "controversy" only applies to the "duty" or "mil-spec" 22Xs, M9s, USPs, FNXs, CZ75s, and similar weapons, which likely aren't in the same rate of use as the 1911/2011 and striker-fired guns, at these events. That seems wild to say, considering the history and pedigree of the mentioned DA/SA guns, but it's likely the truth. All that being said (if true), it's understandable that the safety personnel would rather the minority just conform to the process as experienced by the majority. Seems to me that, if the venue reacts to the decocker like this one did, it's best to adopt jljones' method, and conduct a disciplined dry fire.

quote:

I hear his argument in his context, but I disagree. I much prefer your method, and think you should maintain your good habit.

I RSO a pretty decent number of matches. I happen to prefer the official IDPA command structure which is "pull trigger" but almost everyone else in the sanctioning business requires that you pull the trigger by rule for semi auto handguns when running a cold range . There is a serious safety difference between a trigger press and a decock. Some of my local matches are are hot range and you can decock for those just fine, but those aren't the norm.
It is amazing to me the number of times after a required safety briefing, often a mandatory training session for newcomers the number of people who show up at the line (again on a cold range) and when you say load and make ready chuck a live round out of the gun.
One should normally expect to dry fire a semi centerfire pistol, or insert a chamber flag in a PCC or rifle in any sanctioned match anywhere. You will be DQ'd otherwise.

USPSA range commands are "If clear, hammer down." Pulling the trigger guaranties it, and you're PROVING you have an empty chamber, rather than us taking your word for it, or that the RO noticed or didn't.

As far as habits go, I'm not sure what you're afraid it going to happen doing something a whole 6-8 times.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
...the gamers still gamed..

They went to a game. They played that game.


As long as you're safe, you're free to shoot them whatever way you like, no one will really care. But get it out of your head that they're doing something wrong and you're doing it right.

If you go to a drag race, you don't point out "I was the only one zig zagging."

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I guess anything can be controversial.

I’ve RSO’d many matches. I’m not going to let any person walk away with the loaded gun that can kill me on the next stage.
See the chamber is clear, pull the trigger to prove so, then in the holster. Short of a chamber flag, it’s about as safe as you can get.
Not sure why the controversy.

quote:

As far as habits go, I'm not sure what you're afraid it going to happen

I am not afraid of anything. In my OP, I conceded that the process made sense, in the context of the match, and I didn't have any sort of complaint about it.

quote:

But get it out of your head that they're doing something wrong and you're doing it right.

No worries there. Again, I did not have a complaint about that, and I don't think my OP reads in a way that would imply that I was in any way bitter that the gamers ranked higher than I did. I didn't go there in hopes of ranking high, and was disappointed that the other shooters were doing it "wrong". I consciously chose the approach that I did, and I am not crying foul on the approach of others.

quote:

Not sure why the controversy.

I don't believe there is one. There was a conversation. I don't know why jljones chose to use the word "controversial"; I didn't get that impression from the discussion.

KSGM, I imagine those comments are more directed at me, not your OP. Like you I view it as a discussion, and my intent was not to be controversial, just sharing my perspective.

While I don't shoot much competition, I've been around it enough to recognize the established standards. And as I said, I appreciate it in their context. If that's how they want you to do it, it's their house and their rules...follow them. Just don't do it mindlessly. Put thought into what you're doing and take advantage of the dry-fire rep like Jones suggests.

Most my range time at work is in-service training and we typically operate with a hot range, because that's the environment we're training to work in. If I can't trust my people to safely manage a loaded, holstered firearm I have a way bigger problem than just range safety. Often guys are coming in directly off the road to shoot and then they turn around and head right back out. So far as I'm concerned, a de-cocked and holstered gun is a safe gun...I don't get worked up unless a gun goes into a holster in a condition that it shouldn't, or comes out when it shouldn't. I don't see much of the latter, but I've seen guys re-holster without remembering to de-cock on many occasions (a bit less now because there are so few DA/SA guns still in service around here, but I just caught a guy from another agency doing it 3 weeks ago), so I put a lot of emphasis on building that into their routine if they're carrying a gun equipped with one.