Is there information about the experiences of LE agencies that have adopted and mandated optical sights on all duty handguns?

To be clear, I’m not referring to specialized teams or discretionary adoption by officers who want the sights, but rather agency-wide policies that affect all the “patrol” officers.

Thanks for the replies.

I don’t know of any public source info that’s out there. We first adopted them in 2016 for test and evaluation. In 2018, we opened it up for those that wanted them.

Back during that time, there was little information but we used Aaron Cowan’s MRDS white paper for justification.

Since that time, we get questionnaires from other agencies asking our experiences. We help out where we can and offer up help even with designing transition courses for free.

They are not for everyone.

We are looking at it but our project got bumped a few years for another thing. So far only specialized units and trainers for us. Aaron Cowans's work and getting a few in the upper echelons hands on them worked as far as the sell as well as being target-focused instead of front sight focused.

I wouldn't be a supporter of mandating them.

We just selected our new duty weapon and will begin issuing them during annual inservice training next year. Every officer will be issued a Glock 47 with an Aimpoint Accro P2 and a light. After they complete the 2 day transition course, if they decide the optic isn't for them they will have the option of having it removed. From the testing program we ran this year, we aren't expecting many officers to take that option. Reviews of the optics were overwhelming positive from all ranks who tested them.

As I am in an administrative role, I will likely store my issue weapon and carry a Glock 19 without optic or light. The written policy hasn't been issued yet, but it is widely expected that the 19 and 45 are both going to be approved as alternate duty weapons for investigators and administrators. I like the optic, but a full size pistol with light and optic are a bit more than I want to carry on my administrative gun belt daily. I've got a safe in my office that my full duty belt and equipment live in should they be needed.

Back in 2020, one of our officers approached the chief and asked if he could get an optic on his duty gun (because his buddy was a vortex dealer and was going to get him one cheap).

So chief came to me and said research it and write a policy to make it optional. Having never used an optic on a handgun, I just wrote a policy and said Trijicon and Aimpoint only. The one officer was upset and I told them, get your venom and install it and let me know how it holds up. He did and it didn't make it through two magazines on our Glock 31s. recoil impulse killed it.

So I have a policy written up for optional and officer pays for it. But...

chief read an article in a chief's magazine and said, no, make it mandatory, everyone will get one and we'll be the first department in the county to make it mandatory. He got a quote from someone for RMRs (auto adjust) and RM44 dovetail plate.

So I just said fine, rewrote the policy and snuck in slide milling optional to be paid by the officer. He signed off. I sent mine off to Maple Leaf. As soon as I got it back, the RMRs arrived and he was upset and said NO MILLING. So I had the only milled slide. Everyone else was forced to use the dovetail plate and RMR.

I bought my own adjustable RM06 to deal with my astigmatism.

80% of our guys hated the optic. Only the new young officers liked it. I got used to it.

Our chief retires in 3 years. The assistant chief said as soon as that happens, he will let me make optics OPTIONAL. At least the chief let me order 45 MOS-5 pistols so we could direct mount the RMRs.

So we're getting rid of these soon. We will let those that want to keep them, keep them on. The rest will switch back to irons.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chowser,

I don’t know of any agency that’s mandating them.
Optional in every place that’s using them.

However, the fbi’s new agents are issued and using them for about the past year now.
Gen 5 G-19’s, and ** I think ** Trijicons.

We're probably not what you're looking for as with 7 full-time we're not exactly statistically significant, but we went to P320s with Romeo 1 Pros a little over 2 years ago. It's not mandated by policy, but it's what we issue so you're kinda stuck with it. Nobody has complained, and honestly the guys couldn't wait to get them. I had more reservations about it than anybody, and kinda got dragged into it. With the time I have on it now, I would never opt to go back to irons on my duty pistol. While the Romeo 1 Pro isn't my first choice and I'd probably pick something else if I could supply my own, it's hard to argue the economics and simplicity of Sig's package and their support has been good.

The local city agency (about 40 full-time) went to the same setup less than a year ago, and AFAIK it's a similar situation to us..."It's what we bought you so it's what you're going to carry on duty." County (also about 40 full-time merit officers) ordered theirs a few months back, but are still waiting on Sig to ship them.

Feedback that I've head from the city has been overwhelmingly positive. I have heard a few complaints from old-timers at the county, but it's from people who have no experience with them and don't understand how they work. One guy told me he didn't like that idea that these young guys just want everything to be easier and don't want to put in the work to learn to shoot with irons .

My biggest concern is guys not taking the time to regularly inspect and maintain them. I check mine every morning before it goes in the holster (confirm the dot is on, check for zero shift in relation to irons, check witness marks, check the chamber). It's not just a mindless repetitive exercise...I've actually caught a couple of issues.

I began our last qual session with a cold start drill...they had to deploy their rifle and handgun directly from their cars and engage some targets. Of the three that were there, two had dead batteries in their pistol optics. It was good practice in unexpected transition to irons, but it was also entirely preventable and I had to get up on my soapbox for a bit .

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
My biggest concern is guys not taking the time to regularly inspect and maintain them. ...
I began our last qual session with a cold start drill....

The first is something I think about when considering the question, and yet I see almost no discussion of. When it is extremely common for officers to fail to so much as clean their weapons or even put a drop or two of oil on them after a 300-round range session, I have serious doubts that something that’s more fragile and requires actual maintenance when not being used will be cared for properly by those who are told, “This is what we issue, and it’s what you’ll use.”

I also conducted a more involved cold start exercise years ago and that was an eye-opener for some people including the sheriff at the time who considered himself to be a weapons expert.

Thanks for all the discussion thus far.

Out of curiosity, what constant maintenance is required?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Out of curiosity, what constant maintenance is required?

Not sure if you're asking me or Sigfreund, but I wouldn't say constant maintenance is required...but regular inspection is advisable, and to a greater degree than is necessary for a gun not equipped with an optic. Checking witness marks, confirming zero, simply making sure the dot is operating...all of these have actually saved me walking out of the house with a malfunctioning optic at one point or another. Regular battery changes also need to be done.

It doesn't sound like a lot, and it really isn't, but when some guys never remove their gun from the holster between scheduled shoots except for going in the jail, a lot of this stuff doesn't get done regularly, if at all.

It's absolutely a people problem, not a tool problem, but I don't have stripes or brass on my collar so I can't order anybody to do anything...all I can do is tell them what they should do, show them why, and make sure the batteries get swapped out when they come to the range. Outside of that it's up to them.

The statement was “requires actual maintenance when not in use”. Which rarely if ever do cops use a firearm, so I’d call that pretty constant.

If you feel like you have to constantly check the optic, witness marks, zero, etc you probably do need to stick with irons. Because if you’re having to put that much into it, you are doing something wrong some where. Either through installation, selection of hardware, selection of the optic itself, or merely training. I torque down my optic when I change batteries once per year. I may check it again the first 300-400 round session. I use blue loctite and forget it. Rarely, do I “check” my optic to see if it’s functioning. It was functioning when I was shooting SIMS yesterday. I have no reason to believe when I dry fire tonight it won’t be on. And if it isn’t on, I have these neat things called iron sights that all the fantasy league gunfighters tell me that are more reliable and that are faster anyway (so they say) that I’ll just switch to. I spend the money up front and buy quality stuff. Holosun is not something I’d buy.

Yes, before we do a preplanned operation, I’ll check my dots pistol and rifle. But, it’s part of a process where I’ll unload and reload both, check the lights, sights, etc. it’s part of my preoperational check list that I have done for years.

I agree that most cops don’t need them. I always ask other agency’s that have them approved on a volunteer basis how many are in rotation. That number stays pretty constant around 1/3 of the sworn.

The MRDS is so badly hated in some circles. All of the agency firearms experts claim that they are just that. The MRDS is a lie detector and shows that they aren’t as expert as they claim. The fact that if you can reliably line up irons, that the dot will always be in the window is undisputed. In order for the dot to not be in the window, the sights have to be misaligned badly. It highlights that most agencies are still doing the same things in training today, that they did in 1960. Standing 40 people on the line and giving orders from a tower like a tin pot dictator. Practical shooting is where it’s at and frankly cops that say other wise need to be called out, and they need to own why their people suck.

Why are hit factors always higher in Carry Optics and Open Divisions over the larger iron sight crowds in everything from Bianchi to USPSA? But, instead of embracing this, we are trying to claim it isn’t so because Joe Copper doesn’t need a set of car keys let alone a gun with a dot on it?

Hard skills are always more important than equipment. All coppers need to be at least “a” class shooters because the public demands we be professionals. That will never happen because it’s too expense and takes too much time. Funerals and lawsuits are cheaper.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Out of curiosity, what constant maintenance is required?

Okay, I used the “maintenance” in a way that probably encompasses more actions than how some people interpret the term. To me, car maintenance includes washing the windows or replacing a headlight when required, and maintenance of an optical sight includes ensuring that it’s clean and operational. As for “constant,” how about “proper” and “proper” being at least a check at the start of every shift rather than, “Oh, yeah, we have quals tomorrow. I think I may have cleaned the gun a year ago because I knew it was going to be inspected then, but I’m sure it’s still okay.” If, as one example here mentioned, two of three officers responded to a training session with illuminated reticle sights that didn’t work, that’s a lack of proper maintenance.

At this time optical sights on handguns are still much more likely to be used by officers who are already conscientious about their skills and maintaining their weapons properly. The reason for my original question was to get some idea of how that may be changing by policies that mandate everyone use—and yes, maintain—the sights. As long as they remain optional then we would expect that problems with their use would be minimal, but even then not unknown. I am not going to change anyone’s mind about their use, and wouldn’t even if I could: You want to use one, great. But part of my job is to understand everything pertaining to the weapons my agency uses and that includes anticipating possible problems. That’s why I ask questions, not in hopes that they will be interpreted as negativity that’s going to spread across the country and bring down an entire industry and the end of best operational practices.

I get what you’re saying.

Cops today (as a general rule) are more poorly trained than they ever have been. They can recite the exact definition to what “explicit bias” is, but they can’t lift a latent print to save their life. Something is wrong with our (policing) priorities. The reception of some to the MRDS is a symptom of a rot that runs pretty deep culturally.

Jones, I think you and I are pretty much in agreement. I just wanted to clarify the point about equipment:

I don't get to pick the optic they put on my duty gun. If I had my druthers, it would be something made by Trijicon or Aimpoint, but that's not the case and I have to work with what I'm issued. The same is true (or about to be true) for pretty much every other patrol officer in my county.

So far I've had the following issues with the Romeo 1 that were caught and corrected with regular inspection:

Had a battery die two months after installation. Simple replacement resolved that issue.

Uncommanded Zero Shift (happened once, not sure if the adjustment screws shifted or if it was internal as my original witness marks wore off. I've since etched them into the housing, and added checking them to my routine. I caught the problem by aligning the irons and observing the dot's position relative to them)

Failed to wake from MOTAC sleep mode in the morning (happened at least 3 different times- woke up immediately when I pressed the brightness button)

Dot went to sleep in my holster. I drew the gun to shoot a training scenario and it wasn't there. I shot the course with irons and then when I was done, pressed the brightness button and it came on (not a battery issue). I called Sig after that one and got the optic replaced.

I've never had a screw come loose, but since I'm looking at it anyway I figure I might as well check the witness marks.

Is the Romeo 1 the best optic out there? Almost certainly not. But it has worked 99.5% of the time over the past two years, and I'll take those numbers over not having it at all. I like the dot. I'd even call myself an advocate for the dot. But I also have to be honest with myself about its shortcomings. It's worth the 20-30 seconds it costs me every morning to do a quick inspection and make sure everything is operating as it should before I walk out the door.

Thanks for all that, 92fstech.
A proper evaluation of anything requires the frank disclosure and discussion of the bad as well as the good. I don’t know if I’ll be around in 10 years to see how the issue of optical handgun sights evolves, but if I am, I won’t be surprised if they are the overwhelming norm, as has been mentioned about optical sights on “patrol” rifles. And the more people use them and point out what needs to be fixed or can be improved, the less likely they will have problems and more likely will offer improved performance, whatever that may be.

I am aware of a couple of P320 slides with factory mounted red dots that may become available locally in the near future, and now I’m seriously thinking of trying to buy one. Not because I’m becoming a convert, mind you, just for professional curiosity.

Be careful doing that, you may end up liking it !

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I get what you’re saying.

Cops today (as a general rule) are more poorly trained than they ever have been. They can recite the exact definition to what “explicit bias” is, but they can’t lift a latent print to save their life. Something is wrong with our (policing) priorities. The reception of some to the MRDS is a symptom of a rot that runs pretty deep culturally.

Have I ever told you that "I hate it when you're right."?

My agency, 55 person Sheriff’s Office, is in the process of transitioning to issued G35s with a HoloSun optic. I haven’t done the transition training yet but everyone who has seems to like the set up. According to our trainers, scores have gone way up. I have to admit I’m a little skeptical and surprised at the positive reception by the Deputies. The two things LE hate the most are change and the way things are.

quote:

Originally posted by Paddy314:
55 person Sheriff’s Office,

55 including CSOs, or 55 without CSOs.

To the OP's original question, I have only anecdotal data. Accuracy on the range has vastly improved with the RDS. Not everyone has adopted them but the Officers who have are very comfortable with them and are capable of better precision in particular at distances past 15 yards. Neighboring agencies had similar results.