quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
I suppose that I could compete in F1 with my pickup if I was good enough?
Specialized equipment is better than generalized or improper equipment.

Ok, so what about the novice driver that goes out and buys an F1 race car?
Great car and all, but still drives like shit and can't seem to figure out what all those buttons are for.

What happens when he takes the F1 off the trailer and on to city streets? Never mind snow, or off road... thinking that "hey, I have a 10 MILLION DOLLAR bad ass car!" is all you need to be a good driver. They have the car, that SHOULD make them a better driver, right?


Improper tool and mentality for the job, wouldn't you say?


Now, if you show up to the Grand Primo de Mexico with your F150, sure, they're going to laugh at you. BUT... If you can drive the thing, as in actually DRIVE the truck - skill -, you're turning heads. Because at that level of driving (hockey, golf, badminton, shooting, running...) ability and skill is recognized.
Yes, specialized equipment is better than generalized or improper equipment, but if they don't have the skill, well... they still suck.




And it's not just specific to golf & shooting...
Almost any sport, hockey, tennis, baseball, running... There's people that think that the GEAR makes the sportsman. I'm not saying that gear doesn't have something to do with it, but skill level in the sport is more important.

I'll say the same thing to any shooter that "needs" the $2K Glock race gun / $4K tricked out AR / $20K shotgun that my Dad told me when I "needed"
the best hockey stick & skates sooo many years ago:
"Kid, get good with what you got first."


I believe it was jljones that said something to the effect of "Just because you have the equipment, doesn't mean you're a porn star."

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:

quote:

Originally posted by BehindBlueI's:
It's not mutually exclusive to improve yourself and improve your gun.

I knew a guy that had only one shotgun, but he was the best wing and dove shot I've ever seen. And it was a bone stock Remington auto, nothing more. It was the only shotgun he ever shot, and if he was competition minded he could have shot in Sporting Clays Master class. He shot that gun so much that the gas housing separated from the barrel, and he was looking for someone to weld the damn thing back on. One time the gun jammed because it was so dirty, so he hit the bolt catch with his foot to drive it open. It was funny watching him curse that gun. But he was the best shot in our little club, which had more than one Master class competitor, some of whom shot some very expensive customized guns.

Neat. How many folks are making GM or winning national championships with stock pistols?

Again, not mutually exclusive.

quote:

Originally posted by BehindBlueI's:

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BehindBlueI's:
It's not mutually exclusive to improve yourself and improve your gun.

I knew a guy that had only one shotgun, but he was the best wing and dove shot I've ever seen. And it was a bone stock Remington auto, nothing more. It was the only shotgun he ever shot, and if he was competition minded he could have shot in Sporting Clays Master class. He shot that gun so much that the gas housing separated from the barrel, and he was looking for someone to weld the damn thing back on. One time the gun jammed because it was so dirty, so he hit the bolt catch with his foot to drive it open. It was funny watching him curse that gun. But he was the best shot in our little club, which had more than one Master class competitor, some of whom shot some very expensive customized guns.

A common story one hears around the Gun Clubs. Yet despite 50 years of hanging around trap and skeet clubs....I have NEVER seen it.

I will say though...One of THE most successful trap shooters EVER, Leo Harrison III ,shot fairly standard Rem 1100's/11-87's.

And I recall reading about a young man who won a BIG live pigeon shoot against a lot of very seasoned shooters and he fit the scenario You described.

FN in MT

Some poor analogies.

Taking a pickup to F1 is like taking a pistol to do skeet/trap/sporting clays. Not only would you perform very poorly, you're probably not even allowed to compete.

The point is, take the pistol from the GM shooter and put it in the hands of you average range denizen and they're not winning anything. Give the GM the denizen's Glock that he just posted "what exactly is the $.25 trigger job???" and watch him be competitive.

Can modding improve shooting? Sure. But I am in general agreement with the OP's idea that people often search for mechanical advantages to overcome their skill deficiencies. Frankly, I think part of it is they go to the range just dying for someone to ask what they're shooting so they can spout off. Colion Noir might've done a video with a guy like that recently.

In the end, it's their money. Sure, seeing those threads on whatever forum makes me roll my eyes, but look at it this way: they're doing their part to contribute to the capitalist economy!

I believe a further statement on the state of "sports" in our culture is the fact that the clothes make the competitor! Go into any "sporting goods" store and at least 75% of the products are clothing. It's not how you shoot, but how you look doing it that counts!! Of course I say this wearing my 511 pants and shirt!

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Am I the only one who finds Golf boring? I mean, really boring.........like long range rifle shooting boring.

Gotta agree with at least the golf being boring. Last car dealership I worked for was always setting up golf outings. Finally got the organizer off my back when I asked her if there was a caliber limit and what gauge for the shotgun start.

She then said to me "Maybe this is not your sport" to which I replied "Ya think?"

The same could be said about buying a new pistol then?. If one is buying a SIG X-Five, P210, P226/P229 Legion, CZ Shadow, Wilson Beretta, Walther Q5, etc they are just trying to buy skills?

I suppose everyone should stick with a box stock S&W Sigma and learn to be a real shooter.

If given the choice I'll buy and install 6-pot Brembos every time; I can brake later and drive deeper into corners and still get on the power fast coming out. End result: faster lap times. So why shouldn't I use the same mentality when it comes to guns and how well I ultimately will shoot with them? This 'natural talent' bullshit is typically limited to a special few; the rest of us don't have either the gift or endless hours of practice and ammo to even attempt to make up the skill gap.

quote:

Originally posted by grumpy1:
The same could be said about buying a new pistol then?. If one is buying a SIG X-Five, P210, P226/P229 Legion, CZ Shadow, Wilson Beretta, Walther Q5, etc they are just trying to buy skills?

I suppose everyone should stick with a box stock S&W Sigma and learn to be a real shooter.

Very good point sir. I’ll add that why are we eating our own? In the 2A community I see a lot of judgement and attacking our own. If some guy wants to spend his hard earned money for a tricked out Wilson 1911, what is the got damn problem? Why are some so concerned with what others do with their property and money. It’s not affecting them. And these f’in “golfers” “drive” more
Product offerings whether that be factory or aftermarket. I don’t want a $1-2k Glock but damn if that’s what someone wants to spend their money on, go for it and enjoy.

I also like soggy’s Brembo reference. I run Brembo calipers, rotors, pads and S/S lines on my bikes. More feel, better stopping distances and they could save my life on the track or out in my twisties. Have Brembos on one of my cars too. Best brake manu on the Earth. I also run Ohlins suspension. Modding is fun and can provide real, verifiable increases in performance.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
If given the choice I'll buy and install 6-pot Brembos every time; I can brake later and drive deeper into corners and still get on the power fast coming out. End result: faster lap times. So why shouldn't I use the same mentality when it comes to guns and how well I ultimately will shoot with them? This 'natural talent' bullshit is typically limited to a special few; the rest of us don't have either the gift or endless hours of practice and ammo to even attempt to make up the skill gap.

Does buying and installing those 6-pot Brembos make you a better driver?
Or do they make the car handle better?
There's the difference.
If I put them on my car, at the end of the day, I'm still not Mario Andretti. I'm just a guy with really good breaks on my car.


Someone wants to go out and buy a Sig X-Five, go right ahead. It's not about the guy/gal that buys an X-Five because they like the way it looks, because they can, want to...
But just because they now are the owner of a Sig X-Five doesn't make them a good shooter. It makes them someone with a really nice gun.

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
If given the choice I'll buy and install 6-pot Brembos every time; I can brake later and drive deeper into corners and still get on the power fast coming out. End result: faster lap times. So why shouldn't I use the same mentality when it comes to guns and how well I ultimately will shoot with them? This 'natural talent' bullshit is typically limited to a special few; the rest of us don't have either the gift or endless hours of practice and ammo to even attempt to make up the skill gap.

Does buying and installing those 6-pot Brembos make you a better driver?
Or do they make the car handle better?
There's the difference.
If I put them on my car, at the end of the day, I'm still not Mario Andretti. I'm just a guy with really good breaks on my car.

"End result: faster lap times", so yes it made soggy a better driver because he had the skills to be able to take advantage of the better brakes to lower his lap time which is how race car drivers are judged.

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

quote:

Originally posted by grumpy1:
The same could be said about buying a new pistol then?. If one is buying a SIG X-Five, P210, P226/P229 Legion, CZ Shadow, Wilson Beretta, Walther Q5, etc they are just trying to buy skills?

I suppose everyone should stick with a box stock S&W Sigma and learn to be a real shooter.

Very good point sir. I’ll add that why are we eating our own? In the 2A community I see a lot of judgement and attacking our own. If some guy wants to spend his hard earned money for a tricked out Wilson 1911, what is the got damn problem? Why are some so concerned with what others do with their property and money. It’s not affecting them. And these f’in “golfers” “drive” more
Product offerings whether that be factory or aftermarket. I don’t want a $1-2k Glock but damn if that’s what someone wants to spend their money on, go for it and enjoy.

I also like soggy’s Brembo reference. I run Brembo calipers, rotors, pads and S/S lines on my bikes. More feel, better stopping distances and they could save my life on the track or out in my twisties. Have Brembos on one of my cars too. Best brake manu on the Earth. I also run Ohlins suspension. Modding is fun and can provide real, verifiable increases in performance.

"I’ll add that why are we eating our own? In the 2A community I see a lot of judgement and attacking our own. If some guy wants to spend his hard earned money for a tricked out Wilson 1911, what is the got damn problem?"

I agree 100 percent. I don't understand the animosity either.

Who cares who uses what and how he/she spends money?
If people would pay this much attention to themselves world would be a great place.

I would buy a race ZEV tomorrow if I was rich. And I would shoot it better than a stock glock. And yes, you guys are sounding like jealous little nancies who can’t afford better stuff and belittle those who can. I see a guy with a better car and I think, good for him, not what a poser I bet he’s slower than I am.

Whiny. This thread is full of it.

The bottom line is a skilled shooter can shoot anything. Those who try to buy skill can not.

Oh, it is hilarious that people are but hurt in this thread and are telling people to mind their own business.......but they just can’t seem to manage to mind their own business because if they were minding their own business they wouldn’t care what the opinions of others was.

That is the delicious thing about irony.

You can support the Constitution and have differences of opinion.

When I started shooting competition Precision Pistol (bullseye), I soon bought an accurized Les Baer Wad gun, and a Marvel conversion on a dedicated frame, both equipped with UltraDot RD sights.

It did not instantly make me a better shooter, but it does allow me to concentrate on my shooting, knowing that my equipment is not the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
The bottom line is a skilled shooter can shoot anything. Those who try to buy skill can not.

Oh, it is hilarious that people are but hurt in this thread and are telling people to mind their own business.......but they just can’t seem to manage to mind their own business because if they were minding their own business they wouldn’t care what the opinions of others was.

That is the delicious thing about irony.

You can support the Constitution and have differences of opinion.

That’s the thing JJ, this thread probably won’t change almost anyone’s mind, therefore they really don’t care about others opinion. We’re just discussing the topic on s discussion forum. I don’t see the butt hurt either way.

There is also a big difference between someone like yourself in the firearms industry, shooting lots and lots, compared to the working stiff stuck at a desk 8-5 with a family who can’t shoot as much as you do. For them maybe a GGI trigger “helps” them be just a little bit better.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
The bottom line is a skilled shooter can shoot anything. Those who try to buy skill can not.

bingo

A good trigger job will improve almost every shooter's accuracy on a given gun. But it won't cure trigger press issues, such a consistent "low and left" POI for a right handed shooter.

Quality sighting systems will improve many shooters' accuracy. But they won't cure fundamental issues with sight alignment during the trigger press.

Tweaking recoil springs, changing guide rods, adjusting slide mass can reduce a pistol's felt recoil. But they won't cure fundamental issues caused by a shooter's poor grip.

Just a few things I've picked up from shooting with Grayguns, Rifles Only, and accomplished local shooters.

*****
FWIW, every Sig pistol I own has a Grayguns action job. I sent the pistols to Grayguns after they had hundreds of rounds down range and many hundreds of rounds of dry firing. By that time I had enough mileage on them to reasonably discuss options with Bruce.

A golfer at my club took my Walmart clubs and shot a scratch score. I could spend a lot of money and never shoot scratch scores. I spend money on my firearms because I can. I still get beat by 13 year old kids that shoot more than I do. Sometimes they beat me with my own guns. Practice, practice, practice.

quote:

Originally posted by grumpy1:
The same could be said about buying a new pistol then?. If one is buying a SIG X-Five, P210, P226/P229 Legion, CZ Shadow, Wilson Beretta, Walther Q5, etc they are just trying to buy skills?...

Nah, they buy them just for admiring/fondling purpose.