Sadly, in the 30 years I've been a LEO, I've seen quite a bit of "Me too! Me too!" nonsense coming from agency Chiefs or Lead FI's. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, a ton of agencies followed the FBI off the cliff with their idiotic 147 gr 9mm 'protocol' that was little better than shooting someone with an icepick...through and through. Which is why so many agencies dumped that garbage load by the late 90's.

I also remember when the FBI breathlessly claimed the 10mm Lite (180 gr. doing about 850-900 fps) was the "perfect" police round and a lot of agencies followed suit.
Spoiler Alert: it wasn't, not even close.

Sadly, the firearms world, including LEO firearm instructors, can be as bad as the fashion world when it comes to leaping onto new, shiny things. Someone jumps on a 'new fangled' idea that's supposed to a game-changer, but when used in reality? It's just another also-ran.

Frankly, this "Me too, me too!" dynamic, combined with the near-give away price they offered, is why I think Glock exploded. It's hardly head and shoulders above every other pistol make out there, in fact at best it's probably just even. Which is 'good enough' for most agencies, but it's quality clearly is not solely responsible for it's metastasizing across the nation.

I saw the other day that LAPD is now issuing the FN 509 in 9mm with a RDS and flat trigger. I'm sure now that they've blessed this setup, many other west coast agencies will follow suit quickly and it'll spread east. Not that that's a bad thing, but one has to wonder how many Depts are adopting what they truly believe is the absolute best pistol or round for their needs, or if they're just playing 'follow the leader' and being lazy.

https://fnamerica.com/press-re...-as-new-duty-pistol/

quote:

Originally posted by TexasRaider:
Sadly, in the 30 years I've been a LEO, I've seen quite a bit of "Me too! Me too!" nonsense coming from agency Chiefs or Lead FI's. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, a ton of agencies followed the FBI off the cliff with their idiotic 147 gr 9mm 'protocol' that was little better than shooting someone with an icepick...through and through. Which is why so many agencies dumped that garbage load by the late 90's.

I also remember when the FBI breathlessly claimed the 10mm Lite (180 gr. doing about 850-900 fps) was the "perfect" police round and a lot of agencies followed suit.
Spoiler Alert: it wasn't, not even close.

Sadly, the firearms world, including LEO firearm instructors, can be as bad as the fashion world when it comes to leaping onto new, shiny things. Someone jumps on a 'new fangled' idea that's supposed to a game-changer, but when used in reality? It's just another also-ran.

Frankly, this "Me too, me too!" dynamic, combined with the near-give away price they offered, is why I think Glock exploded. It's hardly head and shoulders above every other pistol make out there, in fact at best it's probably just even. Which is 'good enough' for most agencies, but it's quality clearly is not solely responsible for it's metastasizing across the nation.

I saw the other day that LAPD is now issuing the FN 509 in 9mm with a RDS and flat trigger. I'm sure now that they've blessed this setup, many other west coast agencies will follow suit quickly and it'll spread east. Not that that's a bad thing, but one has to wonder how many Depts are adopting what they truly believe is the absolute best pistol or round for their needs, or if they're just playing 'follow the leader' and being lazy.

https://fnamerica.com/press-re...-as-new-duty-pistol/

180 grain bullet at 859-900 FPS was a pretty good police load in .40. Kinda of inefficient in 10mm size guns but decent as .40 load. Much better than the hot 135 and 155 grain loads my agency messed with in the 90s.

There is good and bad to everything including “follow the leader.” There is a fair amount of FTL here in TX with smaller agencies having retired DPS people in command positions. You know what they say, there’s a right way, a wrong way and the DPS way.

While the FBI’s firearms and ammo testing is very good, unfortunately I would bet that most agencies following the Bureau’s lead on firearms and ammo are doing so because their command staff are National Academy graduates rather than on the merits of the work done by DSU and BRF.

Glock exploded for a few reasons:

First they were in the right place at the right time with a quality product that beat the price of all their competitors.

The fact that Glocks use a partially cocked striker instead of a fully cocked striker allowed ATF to classify them as “DAO.” You may recall in the early days of transition to autos many agencies wanted “hi capacity revolvers” aka DAO autos.

They took a lot of command staff on “factory tours” that included the Champagne room at the Atlanta Gold club..,,,

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:
Glock exploded for a few reasons:

First they were in the right place at the right time with a quality product that beat the price of all their competitors....

They took a lot of command staff on “factory tours” that included the Champagne room at the Atlanta Gold club..,,,

As to the first point, the price they offered was usually a below market low ball they made up for in the maintenance portion of the contract, but yes they were cheap. Their weapon was no better than any Sig, Beretta or S&W of the era, but they understood how to manipulate government bureaucrats better than most. That was, I think, their golden key... they weren't selling pistols as much as they were selling a cheap contract to a bean counter. Police Chiefs, agency procurement officers and pencil pushers are NOT gunfighters or tactically educated. This fact is far more relevant to Glock's explosion than the relative quality of their product.

To the second point? It's really just an outgrowth of the first, actually. Not my firsthand experience, but after 30 years as an LEO, if I had a free Glock every time I heard about a 'decider' getting a free Glock, free vacation or a post-agency retirement job, I could open my own Glock distributorship.

But then, that problem is pandemic across government everywhere. Those that get to pick the contract often get tempted and wooed intensely by those pursuing the contracts. Again, never seen it with my own eyes personally, but many folks I know and trust have told me sickening tales of...shall we say, pleasurable and lucrative persuasion?

On a few occasions I've seen the actual 'best gun' win, or one that was clearly in the running and had all the required qualities, even if it wasn't my preferred make/model. I wish it happened more often.

You mentioned DPS earlier. A few years ago when they went with the Daniel Defense DDM4 V7, because they wanted the best rifle they could get for their troops no matter what, I was stunned. For once, a top tier weapon was chosen, politics and cost be damned. Love it when the good guys win one once in a while.

I was thinking about this thread. I know I can research or hell, I could call every agency and ask what they are issuing. It would neat if we could get confirmation for each state just by members replying.
They don’t have to be members of the agency but of this forum. It would be really cool if by word of mouth;family members, friends, aquaintences, whatever we could list every state!

Just a thought.

quote:

Originally posted by BennerP220:
I was thinking about this thread. I know I can research or hell, I could call every agency and ask what they are issuing. It would neat if we could get confirmation for each state just by members replying.
They don’t have to be members of the agency but of this forum. It would be really cool if by word of mouth;family members, friends, aquaintences, whatever we could list every state!

Just a thought.

It would be. But with 50 states, it seems someone is always switching pistols. Heck, I think Pennsylvania alone has switched what, four times since 2000 or so? Five if they've already moved on from their Sig P227's....

quote:

Originally posted by TexasRaider:
Heck, I think Pennsylvania alone has switched what, four times since 2000 or so? Five if they've already moved on from their Sig P227's....

1993: Adopted Beretta 96D (replacing their Ruger Security Six and GP100 revolvers)
2007: Adopted Glock 37
2013: Adopted Glock 21
2014: Adopted Sig P227

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
1993: Adopted Beretta 96D (replacing their Ruger Security Six and GP100 revolvers)
2007: Adopted Glock 37
2013: Adopted Glock 21
2014: Adopted Sig P227

LOL! The Glock 37, forgot about those! Is there *any* agency still issuing the .45 GAP?

None that I'm aware of, but there could be a few (likely very small) agencies out there that haven't made the transition yet.

But considering the dearth of .45 GAP ammo production these days, any agency that's still fielding it is certainly going to be heavily incentivized to switch once their current ammo stockpile runs low.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by TexasRaider:
Heck, I think Pennsylvania alone has switched what, four times since 2000 or so? Five if they've already moved on from their Sig P227's....

1993: Adopted Beretta 96D (replacing their Ruger Security Six and GP100 revolvers)
2007: Adopted Glock 37
2013: Adopted Glock 21
2014: Adopted Sig P227

Sig discontinued the 227 - how does that work?

Sig may still be supporting the P227 for LE contracts, despite discontinuing it from standard production a couple years ago.

S&W did similar for many years after discontinuing the 3rd Gen line from standard production. For example, the California Highway Patrol continued to field S&W 4006s up through 2019, despite the 4006 being discontinued over a decade earlier.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Sig may still be supporting the P227 for LE contracts, despite discontinuing it from standard production a couple years ago.

I've been wanting to pick up a P227 for a few years. It's a pity it came about around the same time the ballistic world decided the 9mm could everything every other handgun round could do, kind of took the wind out of the .45 ACP's sails. Still, I think it's a good concept and if it's true there's virtually no difference in grip size and pistol handling from a P226, then I'm very interested.

I know most younger LEO's in the PSP probably hate it and would rather carry some newer polystriker, but I'd love to hear from one of Pennsylvania's finest on what they think of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Warhorse:
I'm surprised to see 9mm is the minority caliber.

Not sure that it is anymore. That list is from 2017, and many agencies have moved to G45 or P320 and 9mm.

Here in GA the troopers all carry G45 now. Some of the county departments are also getting off .40 S&W and moving to 9mm.

quote:

Originally posted by TexasRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Sig may still be supporting the P227 for LE contracts, despite discontinuing it from standard production a couple years ago.

I've been wanting to pick up a P227 for a few years. It's a pity it came about around the same time the ballistic world decided the 9mm could everything every other handgun round could do, kind of took the wind out of the .45 ACP's sails. Still, I think it's a good concept and if it's true there's virtually no difference in grip size and pistol handling from a P226, then I'm very interested.

I know most younger LEO's in the PSP probably hate it and would rather carry some newer polystriker, but I'd love to hear from one of Pennsylvania's finest on what they think of it.

Most of them likely don't care.

Among all of the other reasons that the move (back) to 9mm makes sense is that we seem to finally be learning that as most cops are not gun people, putting a gun that is easy to shoot into their hands makes the most sense in getting value out of your relatively limited training time.

Wyoming Highway Patrol just transitioning from the Glock 35 Gen4 40 to their new sidearm the Sig Sauer P 320 9MM they look like the X series with the 3.9 inch barrel I don’t know if they have any 4.7 inch barrel Full Size ones.