For what it might be worth, my LE career was 24 years from 1971 to 1995, serving with 2 local police departments and as an investigator with a major state agency. During nearly all of that time I was required to provide my own handgun, subject to certain requirements (manufacturer, caliber, barrel length, etc).

I was only issued a sidearm once, and even then I was still allowed to carry my own choice as long as it met department standards.

Department-issued weapons and ammunition have become much more common, probably due to concerns over liability exposures.

To this day nearly 60% of all law enforcement agencies in the US are not staffed for 24/7 operations, mostly operating with off-duty officers remaining on-call for emergencies during non-peak periods. Outside the major city and state agencies the use of privately-owned weapons is still very common.

We also had to purchase our own uniforms. Some departments provided an allowance, many just consider it as a condition of employment. When I started out I received an allowance of $240 for uniforms and equipment and a monthly allowance of $20 for cleaning, maintenance, and disposables (such as flashlight batteries, pens, pencils, etc). "Police supply companies" provided catalogs and frequently allowed officers to charge purchases and make monthly payments (only rich folks has credit cards, back in the day). My initial purchases included 3 uniform trousers, 3 summer shirts, 3 winter shirts, duty jacket, neckties, shoes, leather gear (Sam Browne belt, holster, cartridge carrier, handcuffs & case), uniform cap, gloves, and a few incidentals. A new S&W Model 10 Military & Police .38 Special revolver was $88 (LE price, no FET) or a new Model 19 .357 Magnum was $126.

It took me about 3 years to get everything paid off, then it was time to start replacing trousers, shirts, etc. None of that stuff was cheap, at the time, and I had house payments to make and kids to feed.

By the way, my starting salary was $657 per month. After federal & state income taxes, health insurance premium, and retirement fund contribution my take-home pay was $192 every two weeks. My house payment was $182 per month.

I worked every off-duty job and extra duty assignment I could get, just trying to keep the bills paid!

Very interesting historical perspective. Thank you for sharing.

I worked in Law Enforcement from 1982 to 2012. 26 years with a municipal agency in NJ that started with 23 officers and finished with 74 when I retired. We hit all the changes in Law Enforcement when it came to sidearms. When I started it was with revolvers (S&W Model 66 with 4” bbl and 125 grain .357 Magnum JHP’s), shortly after the FBI Miami shoot out debacle we switched to S&W Modem 659 9mm semi-automatics with 115 grain JHP’s. When the third generation Smith’s rolled out we switched to the Model 5906 9mm’s with Federal Hydroshock 147grain JHP’s. When the frames started cracking on our Detectives’ Model 6906’s we switched to Glock G21’s with 230 grain JHP’s. Recently, my old agency made the switch back to 9mm and the Glock G45 due to the cost savings in ammunition price and easier qualifications of the smaller officers now being hired.

Thanks for sharing your experiences fellas. I enjoyed reading them.

As for Virginia State Police, they switched from Sig P229 DAKa in 357 Sig to P320s in 357 Sig over a year ago. They are a believer in 357 Sig.

Mass State Police and NH State Police M&P 45 (4inch, 10 shot) 2.0 (MSP going from 1.0 to 2.0). I saw a previous post saying NHSP P320, this is incorrect, they carry S&W M&P 45.

quote:

Originally posted by operator81:
Montana is currently the Sig P229R in .357 Sig.

Next month we are transitioning to the Smith and Wesson M&P 2.0 Optic Ready in 9mm.

Are FWP Game Wardens going to this as well?

quote:

Originally posted by wacopolumbo:
As for Virginia State Police, they switched from Sig P229 DAKa in 357 Sig to P320s in 357 Sig over a year ago. They are a believer in 357 Sig.

As am I, very much so. I don't really drink the FBI Kool-Aid on ballistic performance, wish my own agency had stuck with it, instead we went to the 9mm Hornady 135 gr. Critical Duty, which frankly is a pretty underwhelming round. Heard of more than a few shootings with it that were less than impressive and it just ain't that fast.

I wish Double Tap would get their .357 Sig 125 gr. JHP back in stock. Or better yet, I'd love Super Vel to start loading it. Now THAT would be wooly!

Mississippi now carries the Glock 17 - Gen. 4

What lights are being used with the Glock 45?

My feeling is a lot of this is "we got to spend some money". Not being an LEO I'm not aware of how much practice shooting each agency does but it can't be enough to warrant replacement. Replacement is probably just partly from the guns getting scuffed over the years from wearing them every 'work' day. Add that to we need to change and there you are.... then just like on here somebodies get into the caliber debate as well as brand and type of action.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
My feeling is a lot of this is "we got to spend some money". Not being an LEO I'm not aware of how much practice shooting each agency does but it can't be enough to warrant replacement. Replacement is probably just partly from the guns getting scuffed over the years from wearing them every 'work' day. Add that to we need to change and there you are.... then just like on here somebodies get into the caliber debate as well as brand and type of action.

The realities of department-wide gun replacement coupled with very favorable trade-in deals from manufacturers and distributors make just getting new guns more logical than you might think.

Most agencies have night sights. They last 7-10 years at the most. Replacements cost $75-$100 depending on brand and model (Glock brand night sights are cheap, Trijicon HDs less so). Over the same period, various parts, particularly springs, reach the end of their service lives. Magazines wear out. Etc.

I can probably get new night sights, recoil springs, and magazines for about $150 per gun. I can save about $40 replacing mag springs. I can also trade my 7-10 year old Glock in for a new one at a cost of $165 and have all new everything.

When you factor in armorer time to replace sights, the logistics involved in getting the sights, guns, tools, and people all to a place where the sights can be installed and zeroed, and then extrapolate that out to a state agency with hundreds or even thousands of officers spread over a wide geographical area, it's no wonder that agencies just get new guns. Remember that in MOST agencies, being a firearms instructor or an armorer is a collateral job, so every hour a guy spends putting on sights is an hour he's not on patrol or working on cases.

Well put. I always tell our guys that guns are machines and have a service life. It is much easier and cost effective to replace the guns. Most of our guys buy their old guns.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
My feeling is a lot of this is "we got to spend some money". Not being an LEO I'm not aware of how much practice shooting each agency does but it can't be enough to warrant replacement. Replacement is probably just partly from the guns getting scuffed over the years from wearing them every 'work' day. Add that to we need to change and there you are.... then just like on here somebodies get into the caliber debate as well as brand and type of action.

The realities of department-wide gun replacement coupled with very favorable trade-in deals from manufacturers and distributors make just getting new guns more logical than you might think.

Most agencies have night sights. They last 7-10 years at the most. Replacements cost $75-$100 depending on brand and model (Glock brand night sights are cheap, Trijicon HDs less so). Over the same period, various parts, particularly springs, reach the end of their service lives. Magazines wear out. Etc.

I can probably get new night sights, recoil springs, and magazines for about $150 per gun. I can save about $40 replacing mag springs. I can also trade my 7-10 year old Glock in for a new one at a cost of $165 and have all new everything.

When you factor in armorer time to replace sights, the logistics involved in getting the sights, guns, tools, and people all to a place where the sights can be installed and zeroed, and then extrapolate that out to a state agency with hundreds or even thousands of officers spread over a wide geographical area, it's no wonder that agencies just get new guns. Remember that in MOST agencies, being a firearms instructor or an armorer is a collateral job, so every hour a guy spends putting on sights is an hour he's not on patrol or working on cases.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
I completely understand budget constraints, legacy ancillary equipment (holsters, mags etc. etc. ) and administration bias etc. but that said I have always been amazed at the variety of firearms, calibers and action types across local agencies. Not because I am a X caliber or Y platform fan boy but more so because I am surprised they don’t all simply just piggy back on to whatever big Federal Agency had the budget to do the most R&D (FBI etc.) and just by in large vastly all buy a Glock 17/19.

Now I know their are outlier needs, maybe you are in an area that deals with large animals for example or have a specific maritime or tac team need but like I said beyond those outliers I am kinda surprised they don’t all go with damn near the same thing.

Now that is no dig against the M&P, 320, SIG etc. etc. etc. just more of an observation at the selection process.

Plainclothes federal agents who mostly conduct consensual interviews, surveillance and pre-planned operations have a very different operating environment than a uniformed police officer responding conducting pro active patrol or responding to emergencies.

In particular a highway patrol agency is going to be shooting people in and around vehicles.

That said the 2017 list is out of date. Most state police agencies are issuing Glocks or Sig P320s in 9mm.

Delaware state police is the first state patrol to issue everyone a red dot optic pistol, P320s with the Romeo1PRO.

I believe Nevada HP and Utah HP are at least allowing RDS pistols.

There are a few agencies still issuing.45s, usually in places where cold weather and heavy clothing are the norm.

quote:

Originally posted by BennerP220:
Well put. I always tell our guys that guns are machines and have a service life. It is much easier and cost effective to replace the guns. Most of our guys buy their old guns.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
My feeling is a lot of this is "we got to spend some money". Not being an LEO I'm not aware of how much practice shooting each agency does but it can't be enough to warrant replacement. Replacement is probably just partly from the guns getting scuffed over the years from wearing them every 'work' day. Add that to we need to change and there you are.... then just like on here somebodies get into the caliber debate as well as brand and type of action.

The realities of department-wide gun replacement coupled with very favorable trade-in deals from manufacturers and distributors make just getting new guns more logical than you might think.

Most agencies have night sights. They last 7-10 years at the most. Replacements cost $75-$100 depending on brand and model (Glock brand night sights are cheap, Trijicon HDs less so). Over the same period, various parts, particularly springs, reach the end of their service lives. Magazines wear out. Etc.

I can probably get new night sights, recoil springs, and magazines for about $150 per gun. I can save about $40 replacing mag springs. I can also trade my 7-10 year old Glock in for a new one at a cost of $165 and have all new everything.

When you factor in armorer time to replace sights, the logistics involved in getting the sights, guns, tools, and people all to a place where the sights can be installed and zeroed, and then extrapolate that out to a state agency with hundreds or even thousands of officers spread over a wide geographical area, it's no wonder that agencies just get new guns. Remember that in MOST agencies, being a firearms instructor or an armorer is a collateral job, so every hour a guy spends putting on sights is an hour he's not on patrol or working on cases.

This ^^^.

If you actually shoot guns they are subject to wear and require preventative maintenance such as spring replacements etc.

Most squared away agencies are shooting 2-4 times per year and averaging 800 to 1,000 rounds per year. It adds up.

My own agency went to .40 cal P229 DAKs in 2005. They were supposed to have a 10 year life cycle but we did not start testing new guns till 2015 and did not transition to 9mm P320s till 2019/2020.

In 42 years of LE service in three agencies, I carried 14 different handguns. The first 7 were revolvers. The firearms industry has been busy for centuries creating obsolescence.

Idaho state police issues Glock 19.5 MOS with Holosun 508T RDS. I heard it somewhere then read about it.

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
I completely understand budget constraints, legacy ancillary equipment (holsters, mags etc. etc. ) and administration bias etc. but that said I have always been amazed at the variety of firearms, calibers and action types across local agencies. Not because I am a X caliber or Y platform fan boy but more so because I am surprised they don’t all simply just piggy back on to whatever big Federal Agency had the budget to do the most R&D (FBI etc.) and just by in large vastly all buy a Glock 17/19.

Now I know their are outlier needs, maybe you are in an area that deals with large animals for example or have a specific maritime or tac team need but like I said beyond those outliers I am kinda surprised they don’t all go with damn near the same thing.

Now that is no dig against the M&P, 320, SIG etc. etc. etc. just more of an observation at the selection process.

Plainclothes federal agents who mostly conduct consensual interviews, surveillance and pre-planned operations have a very different operating environment than a uniformed police officer responding conducting pro active patrol or responding to emergencies.

In particular a highway patrol agency is going to be shooting people in and around vehicles.

That said the 2017 list is out of date. Most state police agencies are issuing Glocks or Sig P320s in 9mm.

Delaware state police is the first state patrol to issue everyone a red dot optic pistol, P320s with the Romeo1PRO.

I believe Nevada HP and Utah HP are at least allowing RDS pistols.

There are a few agencies still issuing.45s, usually in places where cold weather and heavy clothing are the norm.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: BennerP220,

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
I wonder when the last LEO revolver went out of service as a standard issue gun?? I mean as a primary weapon and not some type of back up or off duty. Anyone know?

When I was growing up, Oregon Troopers all had S&W 686's. Today it's all S&W M&P.

Last time I saw a revolver on a cop it was inside the secure area of the Midway airport. Older cop wearing a white shirt and sure enough, revolver on his hip. This was ... I forget.... sometime around 2011.

I kind of miss those revolver days for several reasons.

Some Houston PD (Texas) police officers are still carrying duty revolvers. Three of them work motorcycle patrol, according to a sergeant who recently posted, on another site. Houston PD officers buy their own duty firearms, within PD guidelines.

My entire academy class bought S&W L-Frame duty revolvers, mostly, if not all, Models 686 and 586, and took delivery of them in early 1984. I ordered a 686, and, for personal-time carry, a 2.5” Model 66. The price was a special arrangement, much lower than retail.

Had I wanted, I could have kept carrying that 686 for my entire career, until retirement in 2018. Instead, I switched to bigger bores, and sold or traded the 686. I still have the S&W Model 58, .41 Magnum, that I carried from 1985 to 1990. My most recent primary duty revolvers, as of May 1997, were a Ruger GP100, and S&W Models 66 and 19. I switched to 1911 pistols, for duty and personal-time carry, at that time. I still have that GP100. A few felons got to look at the business end of the GP100, when it was officially a “back-up” gun.

As of September 1997, when the PD standardized on .40 S&W duty ammo, I had to “grandfather” any duty handguns that I intended to keep carrying, as primary duty handguns. I only grandfathered three 1911 duty pistols, so, could not, after that time, revert to duty revolvers. At least one of my academy classmates grandfathered two L-Frames, and, as far as I know, still carries them. (He carries only one at a time, on the duty belt, of course.)

Notably, the 1997 transition to duty autos only applied to “primary duty” handguns. We did not have to grandfather revolvers that we used as back-up guns, and personal-time carry guns. .45 ACP again became an alternative duty duty cartridge in 2012. 9mm again became an alternative duty cartridge in 2015, at which time I transitioned to 9mm duty Glocks, for orthopedic reasons. I do not know what rules may apply to new-hires, regarding back-up/personal-time revolvers, after the time of my retirement. Houston PD has required recent new-hires to start with 9mm G17 duty Glocks, a shift away from the .40 S&W being “the” standard duty cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
My feeling is a lot of this is "we got to spend some money". Not being an LEO I'm not aware of how much practice shooting each agency does but it can't be enough to warrant replacement. Replacement is probably just partly from the guns getting scuffed over the years from wearing them every 'work' day. Add that to we need to change and there you are.... then just like on here somebodies get into the caliber debate as well as brand and type of action.

The realities of department-wide gun replacement coupled with very favorable trade-in deals from manufacturers and distributors make just getting new guns more logical than you might think.

Most agencies have night sights. They last 7-10 years at the most. Replacements cost $75-$100 depending on brand and model (Glock brand night sights are cheap, Trijicon HDs less so). Over the same period, various parts, particularly springs, reach the end of their service lives. Magazines wear out. Etc.

I can probably get new night sights, recoil springs, and magazines for about $150 per gun. I can save about $40 replacing mag springs. I can also trade my 7-10 year old Glock in for a new one at a cost of $165 and have all new everything.

When you factor in armorer time to replace sights, the logistics involved in getting the sights, guns, tools, and people all to a place where the sights can be installed and zeroed, and then extrapolate that out to a state agency with hundreds or even thousands of officers spread over a wide geographical area, it's no wonder that agencies just get new guns. Remember that in MOST agencies, being a firearms instructor or an armorer is a collateral job, so every hour a guy spends putting on sights is an hour he's not on patrol or working on cases.

THIS

My department acquired S&W M&P 40's in 2007. When we "upgraded" to S&W M&P 9's in 2016 after trade-in of our old guns it cost the department around $50 per gun.

Just replacing recoil springs, mag springs, and dead night sights and you are way over $50. Why would you not swap our for brand new guns?

It's sometimes a no-brainer for a department to swap out pistols when the opportunity presents itself.

When you are talking about state police agencies or large departments manufacturers will sometimes even further incentivize it (or do the swap for free) so they can brag that (insert name) PD carries their gun.

quote:

Originally posted by KevH:

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
My feeling is a lot of this is "we got to spend some money". Not being an LEO I'm not aware of how much practice shooting each agency does but it can't be enough to warrant replacement. Replacement is probably just partly from the guns getting scuffed over the years from wearing them every 'work' day. Add that to we need to change and there you are.... then just like on here somebodies get into the caliber debate as well as brand and type of action.

The realities of department-wide gun replacement coupled with very favorable trade-in deals from manufacturers and distributors make just getting new guns more logical than you might think.

Most agencies have night sights. They last 7-10 years at the most. Replacements cost $75-$100 depending on brand and model (Glock brand night sights are cheap, Trijicon HDs less so). Over the same period, various parts, particularly springs, reach the end of their service lives. Magazines wear out. Etc.

I can probably get new night sights, recoil springs, and magazines for about $150 per gun. I can save about $40 replacing mag springs. I can also trade my 7-10 year old Glock in for a new one at a cost of $165 and have all new everything.

When you factor in armorer time to replace sights, the logistics involved in getting the sights, guns, tools, and people all to a place where the sights can be installed and zeroed, and then extrapolate that out to a state agency with hundreds or even thousands of officers spread over a wide geographical area, it's no wonder that agencies just get new guns. Remember that in MOST agencies, being a firearms instructor or an armorer is a collateral job, so every hour a guy spends putting on sights is an hour he's not on patrol or working on cases.

THIS

My department acquired S&W M&P 40's in 2007. When we "upgraded" to S&W M&P 9's in 2016 after trade-in of our old guns it cost the department around $50 per gun.

Just replacing recoil springs, mag springs, and dead night sights and you are way over $50. Why would you not swap our for brand new guns?

It's sometimes a no-brainer for a department to swap out pistols when the opportunity presents itself.

When you are talking about state police agencies or large departments manufacturers will sometimes even further incentivize it (or do the swap for free) so they can brag that (insert name) PD carries their gun.

It's not just Bragging rights. In many areas smaller departments will follow what the state police or nearby large metro agency does including duty weapon choices. In my area many of the sheriffs and police chiefs of smaller rural agencies are former state LE and as they say, there is the right way, the wrong way and the DPS way....

In my career with three departments I've gone through several department wide replacements (GP100-P94-G22-P226-P229-G22 gen 4-G17 Gen5) and in all cases buying new guns was cheaper or about $75 more than parts replacement. It's not just the cost of parts but the cost of overtime to work on the guns. Departments with fulltime stand alone armorers, it might be cheaper to replace parts.