quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
It's true that the 9x19 began receiving greater attention in the Carter era, but it had nothing to do with the Metric System. Rather, it was due to the introduction of high-capacity 9mm pistols in the last half of the 1970s, collectively referred to as "Wonder Nines" which is a term coined by Bob Shimek...

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Para- A serious question for you:
How do you know all of this stuff?!?!

I know you have a background in Film and IIRC, you were a cameraman at a TV station. It's rather obvious that you're into (like WAY INTO) shooting, different firearms, and the history of weapons & manufacturers.

But damn man! Either you're a regular "Raymond Babbit" when it comes to guns, or you're sitting in a crazy library like Levon Helm's charecter in "Shooter". Which is still amazing because you know just what book a random piece of knowledge is in.

To wit: how in the hell do you know who coined the term "wonder nines"?

the 9mm is hugely popular today and with the fbi now claiming it is the best compromise in power capacity and control ability gaining popularity ( the same agency which insisted it was inadequate in the late 80’s which spawned the 40 S&W).

In perspective though, it really wasn’t taken seriously as a service cartridge in the US until the early 80’s, when the military started looking to adopt one to comply with nato commonality.
Prior to that it was primarily a niche cartridge used mostly in war souvenir surplus Lugers p38’s and such. Up to that point the revolver was king, with the 45 ( synonymous with 1911 at the time) in second place.
From an American perspective, ( the last 20 years or so need to be linked to the 100 or so before that) the 45 and 38 special also have a long distinguished lineage, and were mainstream far longer than the 9mm.
While the 9mm is a shining star for now, the 45 and 38 while slowing down still plod along with a degree of popularity.
Not saying I agree with the “mood swings” we see in ballistics circles, and I myself have plenty of confidence in the 9mm when I carry it.
But if we see another spectacular failure with the 9 ( regardless if the caliber is at fault or not) a la 1986 Miami, the pendulum will swing again

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
In perspective though, it really wasn’t taken seriously as a service cartridge in the US until the early 80’s, when the military started looking to adopt one to comply with nato commonality.
Prior to that it was primarily a niche cartridge used mostly in war souvenir surplus Lugers p38’s and such.

Not quite. The 9mm S&W Model 39 was adopted by the Illinois State Police in the mid/late-1960s, and the S&W Model 39, Browning Hi Power, and Uzi and Swedish K 9mm SMGs were used by some US military special operations units in Vietnam in the same timeframe.

The subsequent double-stack S&W Model 59 gained even further traction with police agencies starting in the early 1970s.

The introduction of the various Gen 2 9mm S&Ws (439/459, et al) in the late 1970s and early 1980s drove even further law enforcement adoption.

So 9mm as a US police/military service cartridge predated the 1980s XM9 program by a couple decades.

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:
how in the hell do you know who coined the term "wonder nines"?

Because I was a faithful reader of Guns&Ammo magazine from the early 1970s until 2010 or so. Jeff Cooper mentioned Shimek's coining of the term and Dave Arnold did as well, more than once IIRC.

That's correct, according to this article it was Shimek that originated the term. Got to go, my Gen 5 Glock 17 needs a bit of TLC.

https://www.shootingillustrate...-of-the-wonder-nine/

That article explains that the P38 wasn't a "Wonder Nine" because of its limited magzine capacity, the Hi Power was not a "Wonder Nine" because it was SA only, and that the "Wonder Nine" category began with the DA/SA > 8 round capacity pistols but never mentions the term

"Crunchenticker."

That's a derogatory term coined by Jeff Cooper

Amazing!
Your ability to retain knowledge from 40 years of a Magazine a month (and presumably more reading material) is mind blowing!

(I'm still going with Levon Helm in a crazy library!)

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
In perspective though, it really wasn’t taken seriously as a service cartridge in the US until the early 80’s, when the military started looking to adopt one to comply with nato commonality.
Prior to that it was primarily a niche cartridge used mostly in war souvenir surplus Lugers p38’s and such.

Not quite. The 9mm S&W Model 39 was adopted by the Illinois State Police in the mid/late-1960s, and the S&W Model 39, Browning Hi Power, and Uzi and Swedish K 9mm SMGs were used by some US military special operations units in Vietnam in the same timeframe.

The subsequent double-stack S&W Model 59 gained even further traction with police agencies starting in the early 1970s.

The introduction of the various Gen 2 9mm S&Ws (439/459, et al) in the late 1970s and early 1980s drove even further law enforcement adoption.

So 9mm as a US police/military service cartridge predated the 1980s XM9 program by a couple decades.

Everything stated is accurate, but again until the late 80’s only a scant handful of agencies adopted a 9mm auto. My statements of limited popularity still stand.

My first 9mm was a S&W 669.
In fact Marzy and I had to share it.
But I cracked it shooting Cor-Bon +P in it.(hence why I will NEVER use that trash again)

Then a Taurus PT99AF took it's place for me. Marzy got a PPK.
That 99 AF was stupid reliable. My futire wife shot a bowling pin match with it and out scored me!

I too lubs the 9.

I think that the 30SC is even better than 9x19. It does everything that 9 does but adds even more capacity. So whomever subscribes to the capacity is king argument but scoffs at 30SC is being hypocritical. Just my opinion though.

quote:

Originally posted by ThatGuy1182:
I think that the 30SC is even better than 9x19.

Yeah, good luck with that. It might as well be 1994 and you're extolling the virtues of the .356 TSW.

The 9x19mm cartridge will be around to the end of the smokeless powder era, when you'll have to look up the .30 Super Carry in an obsolete cartridges database.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by ThatGuy1182:
I think that the 30SC is even better than 9x19.

Yeah, good luck with that. It might as well be 1994 and you're extolling the virtues of the .356 TSW.

The 9x19mm cartridge will be around to the end of the smokeless powder era, when you'll have to look up the .30 Super Carry in an obsolete cartridges database.

Ah, an opinion for an opinion, interesting that it triggered such a response as this though.

Luck has nothing to do with it, the facts are still there. Whether it comes alive again is dependent on the consumers which for right now is making the 9x19 the new 45 ACP with the holdouts.

I never said that 9mm will go away so I am not sure where this is coming from. But I did point out at the hypocrisy among the 9 cult, you all do not like having your own argument championing for 9, being used against you when it comes to 30SC.

Perhaps 30 Super Carry should be renamed to 30 Super Triggered, no?

And I hardly believe that 30SC would ever become obsolete. The way cartridges have made a resurgence such as 10mm Auto, 5.7 FN, 22 Magnum, even 380 ACP, calling it obsolete prematurely is an ignorant mindset to have.

YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by ThatGuy1182:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by ThatGuy1182:
I think that the 30SC is even better than 9x19.

Yeah, good luck with that. It might as well be 1994 and you're extolling the virtues of the .356 TSW.

The 9x19mm cartridge will be around to the end of the smokeless powder era, when you'll have to look up the .30 Super Carry in an obsolete cartridges database.

Ah, an opinion for an opinion, interesting that it triggered such a response as this though.

The 125 year history of the 9x19mm is not an opinion. You're touting a cartridge that got here, essentially, yesterday. There is no comparison between the subject of this thread and an unproven cartridge which is still an infant in an incubator.

And "triggered"? Don't use that PC horse shit language with me. There is precisely zero triggered about laughing at a comparison between the most successful pistol cartridge of all time and a cartridge introduced last year. Here you are saying that a cartridge whose life span can be measured in months will never become obsolete. Now, that's just plain silly.

Has nothing to do with not wanting a cartridge to supplant 9x19 or some kind of cult etc. hell I’m not really a 9mm guy at heart personally.

It’s just facts. The likely hood of .30SC taking off is EXTREMELY low. Rounds like .45 GAP or .327 Magnum were great rounds(concepts) released at a time when ammo was cheap and widely available.

.30SC is in a market where prices for everything have gone crazy and cheap is the word of the day. I haven’t really heard a peep about .30SC since its introduction. My guess is it will go the way of .45Gap.

None of that is me saying the cartridge sucks and you’d be stupid blah blah. It’s a good little concept but doesn’t bring enough to the table in the best of times much less now.

It’s ok to like a round few others do, but the masses will drive the bus so to speak and nothing has had the run 9x19 has had this side of .22LR. That was my OBJECTIVE thought not my personal preference. I personally like my “it starts with a 4 calibers” more.

Well, that's what we were discussing until the FNG piped up. Something tells me he'll have something more to say and then we'll put this behind us PDQ.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

Yeah, I figured that. Five days is all you lasted. See ya, bright boy.

quote:

Originally posted by abnmacv:
Read somewhere that the 9mm got popularity boost when Jimmy Carter tried to impose the metric system on the USA. 9mm gained popularity as it was metric.

lol wow, just no

I'd say it was more the "Wonder-9's" of that era than anything any one person at the time did

EDIT: Ooops I didn't bother to read that para already added in Wonder 9's and had a much more thorough explanation, but yea wonder 9's.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
The likely hood of .30SC taking off is EXTREMELY low. Rounds like .45 GAP or .327 Magnum were great rounds(concepts) released at a time when ammo was cheap and widely available.

.30SC is in a market where prices for everything have gone crazy and cheap is the word of the day. I haven’t really heard a peep about .30SC since its introduction. My guess is it will go the way of .45Gap.

Yes, and it's ridiculous to come into this thread and interject a cartridge that's a year old, when the subject is a cartridge that's been going strong since 1902 or 1903.