It's funny how times have changed - 10-15 years ago all the "experts" on the internet were saying carry any caliber you want as long as it starts with a "4".

I'm happy those days are over.

Because they tend to work pretty good even without high tech bullets.


Still solid advice, though I think it made have been quite a bit more than 10-15 years.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
So your saying I should get a 1911 in 9mm.

better in 38 super,



but to stay on course, I had a Springfield 1911 in 9mm back in the 80's granted the ammo choices are not what they are now, but I was unimpressed (even less so with the P85 it replaced)

ended up putting a GI slide and barrel on it, ,


and back on target, when I carry a larger pistol, it is a 228 or P9 ,
and have a 226 as a shop gun,

Regarding the 1911- Jeff Cooper once said that you buy .45 autos for the cartridge and you buy 9mms for the pistols. In spirit, he was correct, because one has to admit that some of the most interesting pistols ever made have been primarily or exclusively chambered in 9x19mm. The H&K P7 comes immediately to mind. The FN High Power. The Walther P-38. The Beretta 92, etc.

This fact has certainly helped drive the popularity of the 9mm cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Scooter123:
I would submit the inspiration for Luger was the 38 ACP and it was scaled back a bit to dodge Browning patent and reduce it's energy enough so it didn't shoot the Luger pistol into a pile of broken parts.

No, as Para already pointed out, the 7.65mm Parabellum round was the inspiration for 9mm Parabellum, with it being essentially a 7.65x21mm case with the bottleneck removed to accommodate a larger 9mm bullet.

Before Luger eventually settled on the non-bottleneck final case design for 9mm Parabellum, there was an intermediate evolutionary step where it was initially envisioned as a similar bottleneck cartridge, a prototype cartridge unofficially known today as "9mm Borschardt" or "9mm Borschardt-Luger", which used a 9mm bullet with the bottom ~20% of the bullet stepped down to 8.4mm.



This photo shows the 9mm Parabellum family tree, with (L-R) Early 9mm Parabellum > 9mm Borschardt > 7.65mm Parabellum

(Actual photo of my CZ P-01, circa 2017.)

This discussion caused me to go look at my gun database.... '357' is my favorite caliber... back when I first started being a 'gun enthusiast' revolvers in 357 magnum were my choice... then I inherited a Ruger P95 and fell for 9mm.... but that '357' always followed me... so a few years ago I moved either up or over to 357 sig caliber....

anywho.... my data base shows I have 6 more guns in 9mm than I do in '357' of one type or another. I like 9mm for putting holes in paper...

I have a guy I go to church with that works in a prison and he says it is pretty normal for an inmate to brag about and show off his 9mm scares.

I do find it interesting that the 9 is touted for its low recoil.
Then it gets stuffed with + P ammo and that really puts a twist in things, even my P226.
Agreed in standard load it’s easy to control but most carry ammo is pretty hot to trot and it’s a bitch in smaller platforms like the 365.

So the main advantage becomes less, and yet my .357 Sig has about the same recoil impulse as hot 9 ammo?
Load the 9 hot and you still gotta hang on after the first or second round.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmoid:
I do find it interesting that the 9 is touted for its low recoil.

By whom? If that's at all true, it's an ancient argument, going back to the .45 ACP versus 9mm debates.

But, tell me who is making such a claim these days. And now that we have very small 9mm pistols, it's even less true that it was before.

I’ve never really found recoil to be much of a factor across the martial calibers but even “stout” 9mm stuff is generally the lesser of perceived recoil across like for like platforms and rounds.

Using the SIG P229/239 as an example since they were originally designed around .40, while defensive .40 is a pussycat in these guns defensive/+p is even more so.

Now recoil is a bit of a subjective observation from person to person and I personally prefer the above guns in .40 but even hot 9mm isn’t really much of an event. Now I am not speaking about boutique or hand loaded stuff that is basically .357SIG by another name.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by sigmoid:
I do find it interesting that the 9 is touted for its low recoil.

By whom? If that's at all true, it's an ancient argument, going back to the .45 ACP versus 9mm debates.

But, tell me who is making such a claim these days. And now that we have very small 9mm pistols, it's even less true that it was before.

Para,
Yes, probably going back in time, but still even the military today for female soldiers. As well, my son is with local PD here in Idaho and female officers and other non gun nuts lead the change from 40 S&W to 9 based on range qualification and
subjective input.
And then there is Houston Shaw in Hagaerman, Idaho who I have gone thru three handgun courses with. Houston is a former two-time Production Steel Challenge National Champion and extols the low recoil of 9 vs. 40 and 357 Sig for women students who show up to class with .22’s.

Of course, my Sig MPX is a pussycat.

I think when we are discussing perceived recoil in various rounds of various powers we need to consider the other obvious factor... the size and type of the handgun/pistol. I have both a Sig P290 as well as a Ruger LCP in 9mm and I can assure you from personal experience there is a difference in shooting any type of load in those than one of my Sig P226s.

I can and have shot 9mm all day long, hundreds of rounds, in one of my P226s. There is no way I would do this with either of the other two or I presume the new queen in the castle the P365.

quote:

Originally posted by maxwayne:
[snip] Seems to me, a former Navy man should have one.

Don’t be fooled by that avatar that looks just like a Navy GMC badge…I was a real sailor (ha take that squids) and was in Uncle Sam’s Canoe Group/USCG

/drift

To answer the original question:

I my opinion no.

To answer the later question of should I get a 9mm 1911?

I my opinion Hells Yes!

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Uh, no

Agreed, no way in hell. I was in grade school when the metric shit started up, it went over like a lead balloon. It's definitely superior in function, but having been raised in the imperial system, you like what you're used to. I don't think any of the hard sciences use the imperial system, but that's another animal altogether.

It's true that the 9x19 began receiving greater attention in the Carter era, but it had nothing to do with the Metric System. Rather, it was due to the introduction of high-capacity 9mm pistols in the last half of the 1970s, collectively referred to as "Wonder Nines" which is a term coined by Bob Shimek. Pistols such as the Beretta 92, the Star Model 28 and the CZ-75, the latter which, although it was not commercially available in the US until the 1980s, was touted by Jeff Cooper in contemporary gun publications (and became the basis of the Bren Ten). And of course the S&W Model 59 had been introduced in 1971, and the FN High Power had been around for decades.

This concept of quality auto pistols with twice the capacity of a 1911 is what set the 9mm pistol on a path to success in the US market.

First glimpse I had of a 'wonder 9" was when I was a teenager and reading the book Serpico and then again in the movie.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
So your saying I should get a 1911 in 9mm.

I have one and shot it in IDPA for years. 9mm 1911s are great fun.

There’s a pattern, which would be interesting to analyze, where a new technology- like semi-auto ammunition- gets invented, there’s a rapid pattern of innovation, then the ideas get refined for a very long time.

(Cars are similar)

I cannot see 9MM being displaced, unless powders end up permitting some radical change in case design - either a tremendous increase in velocity, or reduction in required capacity (similar to when smokeless powder became available)

quote:

Originally posted by clang:
It's funny how times have changed - 10-15 years ago all the "experts" on the internet were saying carry any caliber you want as long as it starts with a "4".

I'm happy those days are over.

Round technology has come a long way in the past 20 years!
There's a lot more reliable penetration and consistent expansion in 9mm JHP's then there was back then.