Currently, I have room for one more pistol in my carry rotation. I could choose another 9mm or possibly bring in a Colt Commander XSE.

I'm pretty much relegated to 9mm, .40, and 45 ACP in my work calibers (on and off duty). We carry HST, 9mm is 147 gr and 45 is 230 gr (both standard pressure/velocity). Is there any practical difference in terminal performance / advantages in the 45?

quote:

Originally posted by bcjwriter:
Currently, I have room for one more pistol in my carry rotation. I could choose another 9mm or possibly bring in a Colt Commander XSE.

I'm pretty much relegated to 9mm, .40, and 45 ACP in my work calibers (on and off duty). We carry HST, 9mm is 147 gr and 45 is 230 gr (both standard pressure/velocity). Is there any practical difference in terminal performance / advantages in the 45?

Here are some test results to take a look at.
https://www.luckygunner.com/la...mmo-ballistic-tests/

My carry is 9mm 124gr HST standard velocity.

Beat me by one minute...
I was gonna link lucky gunner also

I would argue that the only really practical difference only comes into play when you don’t have access to high quality defensive ammo and thus .45 might have an edge. I also feel like .45 has a more pleasant sound signature.

HST vs HST effect on target is likely a wash in all but an occasional statistical anomaly.

Said the guy who still tend to like bigger rounds in general.

It depends on how you look at it. Personally I feel the .45 has a slight advantage due to the larger size and weight. However, if you look at it in a different light. The same size gun will hold a heck of a lot more 9mm rounds (generally) or a 9mm will be a lot more compact of a gun. Realistically, carry whatever gun you shoot best. I'd feel comfortable with either in a self defense situation at 15 yards or less.

The standard pressure 147 grain HST appears to give more penetration that the standard pressure .45 ACP HST. If you look at the Lucky Gunner video of the ballistic gelatin testing of these two HST loads, the .45 ACP HST produces a righteous temporary stretch cavity, more so than the 147 grain HST, but I'll take the extra penetration of the 147 grain load. Also, the 147 grain HST is a pussycat to shoot- the lightest recoiling of any 9mm HST load. The HST which seems to be the best of both worlds is the +P loading of the 124 grain HST- large (and longish) temporary stretch cavity and excellent penetration.

Moving away from the choices listed, what really impresses me is the Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain +P. IIRC, this is the FBI's new duty load. Excellent penetration and a largish, long temporary stretch cavity.

I've got 500 rounds of this stashed away but haven't yet had the opportunity to try it out in my Glocks. I think if I were a law enforcement officer, this is the load I'd want in my pistol. Hornady does caution that this load was not developed for and is not intended to be used in short-barreled 9mm pistols. I take that to mean any barrel shorter than about 3.75". I think in a 4.5" G17, the Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain +P would be a superb self defense load, capable of being effective even after penetrating auto glass. Also, I ran into some testing on youtube a while back which demonstrated that although the HST is an advanced hollowpoint design, it still is a hollowpoint and therefore can clog and fail to expand under certain circumstances (very heavy clothing), whereas the Hornady bullet design has that polymer tip in the cavity and is essentially immune to clogging.

A real sleeper, though, appears to be the Hornady Critical Duty 124 grain, which is available only in +P. I've got some of this put away, too, but as with the 135 grain stuff, haven't yet had the opportunity to try it out. In order to feel comfortable with using a new load, I have to shoot quite a bit of it out of whichever particular pistol I intend it for. I don't make any snap decisions when it comes to this. Test, test, test and test some more.

As it stands, though, I use Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P in my home defense G17 (primarily because I know this pistol/ammo combination very well, after years of use). I use standard pressure Federal HST in my CCW G19, and the same load in +P in my CCW G26. Why the difference? Because these load are what I shoot best in the respective pistols.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
The standard pressure 147 grain HST appears to give more penetration that the standard pressure .45 ACP HST.

tnoutdoors9 on YouTube also found the same results. He also saw that the standard pressure rounds penetrated better than +P, however +P would also expand larger.

While interesting, I do wish Lucky Gunner would also test using duty sized guns as some rounds are under performing because they can't get up to speed out of a CCW sized gun. Something like a 4" barrel would be a nice compromize, but I'm really just nitpicking.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

Moving away from the choices listed, what really impresses me is the Hornady Critical Duty 135 grain +P. IIRC, this is the FBI's new duty load. Excellent penetration and a largish, long temporary stretch cavity.

My former neighbor is a firearms instructor for a SWAT team. He’s also a sniper on the SWAT team but had to shoot two black men in the last few years and so I don’t think he does that much anymore. One of his shootings, while totally and completely justified, made some noise in the media.

Anyway he’s a guy that knows a lot about ballistics and he highly recommended this cartridge to me. My P320, CZ Scorpion, G19 and G48 are all loaded with this.

I use 147gr HST in my short barrel guns.

Another great thing about the Critical Duty is that in retail stores it is sold in 25 round boxes instead of 20 round boxes for around the same price. Personally I prefer buying 50 round boxes online but when that’s unavailable the 25 round box is nice.

I'd recommend the vista outdoors LE ammo page.
link
It allows you to compare both rounds side by side.
In Bare Gel (FBI compliant) both the 147 Grain 9mm and the 230 GR HST. Both rounds penetrated to 12 inches, the .45 expanded to .980 and the 9mm to .850. In heavy clothing the .45 penetrates to 13.50" and expands to .870 and the 9mm penetrates to 12.50 and expands to .690. It also includes the other medias, but I won't post them due to space.

In comparsion Lucky gunner claims 14 inch penetration and .59-.61 inch expansion for the 147 grain 9mm HST. The SKU P9HST2 is the same on both sites. Also Luck Gunner shows a velocity of 954-993 fps and VISTA shows a velocity of 1023 fps.

In practical application, I suspect the FBI justification memo (or what was released to the public) is correct in that both will have similar performance given shot placement and the fact that they are premium law enforcement ammo.

Truth in lending, my carry ammo is 147 grain, Speer G2. So I am 9mm/147 gr fan.

Like I mentioned in my above post, Lucky Gunner is using CCW sized guns with anywhere from a 3.25" - 3.6" barrels. Some of the loads need a little more velocty to get in the optimum velocity range to perform correctly. The biggest change in hollowpoint technology is need a speed range to do their best instead of just adding pressure to give the bullet a harder impact and greater speed to expand.

Speer GDHP 124gr +P out of a Glock 34

I too like the HST 147 gr. for nine mm as well as the 124 gr. +P Gold Dots. For 45 I have switched from Federal HST to Federal 210 gr. Hydra Shok Deep.

The .45 acp round does make a larger initial hole.

I bet the 230 gr .45's would terminate bowling pins off the table more consistently than the 147 gr nines.

If I had a few boxes of each, I'd be happy to run the trials.

Ultimately we need to remember that these are just chunks of copper jacketed lead, moving at moderate velocities that penetrate about the same degree and disrupt tissue similarly. The PD that I retired from has issued both of these rounds for decades and they've proven to be equally effective in defensive situations, dependent upon where the threatening offender was struck.

Although I carry 9mm pistols more frequently these days than in the past (when I nearly always carried a .45 ACP), I'm tending to use the Winchester Ranger "T-Series" 147 grain standard pressure loads. Their terminal performance appears identical to the 147 grain HST standard pressure loads, but in my trials with personally owned firearms, there's notably less muzzle flash and felt recoil with the Winchester ammo and maybe a bit more accuracy than the Federal offering.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I bet the 230 gr .45's would terminate bowling pins off the table more consistently than the 147 gr nines.

If I had a few boxes of each, I'd be happy to run the trials.

And prove what? I haven't heard anyone use this ancient argument since the 20th century. A baseball bat would do a better job than either.

The human body is not made of solid wood.

quote:

Originally posted by .45 ACP Nut:
The .45 acp round does make a larger initial hole.

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Ya know slow and heavy / light and fast blah blah have been debated for pretty much as long as we have been slinging lead.

Modern methods have shown 2000 FPS or there abouts where there is enough “shock wave” if you will to start causing ancillary damage.

My question is does this play out in the few pistol calibers that achieve this? Most of them are around 40-100 grains in size and most are just at or slightly below that threshold.

So, take something like that 7.5 round BRNO, is it a markedly more effective round or are we basically still talking about a fairly powerful pistol no more no less. (Academically speaking and assuming the ammo didn’t cost like $8000 a shot or whatever. .). Would a mainstream 2000 FPS pistol round revolutionize handgun ballistic power or would it just be a marginal difference?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled 9mm vs .45 debate.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
So, take something like that 7.5 round BRNO, is it a markedly more effective round or are we basically still talking about a fairly powerful pistol no more no less.

Keep in mind that even 7.5 FK is only 2000 fps at the muzzle. It basically immediately decreases from there. So unless you're getting hits at or near contact distance, even 7.5 FK will be under the 2k threshhold by the time it reaches the target in most cases.

Therefore, if 2k is the "shockwave" cutoff, I doubt even 7.5 FK will have a rifle-style effect in nearly all circumstances.

True enough. But let’s say you can hold the magic 2000 FPS for say 10 yards which Statistically is still within the vast number of actual shooting distance at least for normal folk.

Does just crossing or just a tad under that threshold REALLY make a difference? Say 1900-2100 FPS range? I am not arguing the fact I am simply curious if it would make for a VASTLY more effective shot or just a meh its got a little more juice but not enough to outweigh any negatives kind of thing.

Course I don’t care for .357SIG because of its sound/blast signature. I don’t imagine I would like a 2100fps pistol round much either. . Although .22TCM is sort of a HOOT on the range to be sure.