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I carried a P-220 for years. I too am a fan of the .45! However, I went with simple math, I'd rather have 14 rounds than 8 rounds. A 1911 is out of the question for me as a duty gun, but if I could, I would. I'm limited to DAO/DAK or striker fired. WML? Love my TLR-2S! it's on my duty gun all day. Some aren't fans of WML. I find the G-21 fits. It's got enough meat to dampen the recoil, but doesn't feel like an anchor to me. Then again, so does my P-220. I trust both my Glock and Sig with my life, so do a ton of other people. They are equally great and reliable handguns. Again, the G-21 just fits. I recently got my G-19 stippled, and as soon as Polymer Refined is up and running again, he's getting my G-21. Don't get me wrong, my 220 feels nice in my hand, I like the Hogue rubber grips, and I do shoot it well. I'm just as accurate, and a little faster with my G-21. At the end of the day, I have 14 rounds, and at least another 26 on my belt. But I guess it comes down to this: -Everything about the gun feels right. Hard to argue with that. If it feels right to you, than use it on duty. It's not like you're talking about using a Hi-point. You're talking about using a high quality, accurate, reliable weapon. (Before you take the G-21 off the table, did you look at the 4th Gen? Would that fit better in your hand?) If I told you that tomorrow, you're going to get into a gun fight. Which gun are you putting on your hip? Therein lies your answer. ______________________________________________________________________ "When its time to shoot, shoot. Dont talk!" “What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It’s not good at much else.” —Author Tom Clancy | |||
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My dept carried the 229/40 until last April when we converted to the full size 320/40. I was a reserve LEO and retired two weeks ago. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Yes, well thought out - especially the rational for going to the G17, being a K9 handler. Pretty much mimics my rational for carrying a G19/XC1 with my dogs and kids.  However, even as a simple CCW citizen, this resonates with me as well...
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I know we can look at statistics and the average number of rounds fired in each gunfight and all that but in this day and age no way would I carry an 8+1 pistol and 4 magazines for a total of 41 rounds when there are better options that double your capacity. https://www.policeone.com/poli...-of-ammo-on-the-job/ "Clear Eyes. Full Hearts. Can't Lose." | |||
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The P220 carry is calling to me! DPR | |||
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| Member |
If you look at the details of the Gramins shooting, he went through so much ammo because he used a "spray and pray" model for his OIS. It wasn't until he had depleted most of his ammo, that he realized he had better start actually taking aim at his target. The same thing happened in the Officer Keith Borders shooting. He was also using a Glock 21, and was down to his last magazine before he started to take better aim. For many years, officers have done quite well with low capacity revolvers, even against long guns. Most LE and civilian handgun training now days stresses firing until the threat is gone. This is a pretty sound approach to stopping a threat, however in an actual shooting this technique tends to cause the shooter to fire more rapidly than they can control and burn through their magazine rather quickly. The other observable issue is the psychological effect of having a high capacity pistol often causes the shooter to waste ammo in a gun fight. This issue has been observed as far back as WWII when the US Army upper brass was hesitant to adopt the M1 Garand for fear that it would cause the solder to waste ammo in semiauto mode versus the more purposeful action of using the bolt action Springfield 1903. Battle field tests indeed showed that US GIs indeed burned through much more ammo with the Garand than the Springfield, with no increase in enemy casualties. One thing I will say that I have observed in OIS reports that I have read from my agency, along with many other Federal agencies is that the .45acp is pretty effective IF, and only IF you hit the target in a good spot(On the flip side, our agency shootings where the officer was using 9mm, and made good shots were also quite effective). One problem that I have with a lot of trainees trying to use either the P220 or P227 is that they have a great deal of trouble hitting 8" steel beyond 20yrds due to anticipated recoil jerk and grip fatigue. Anticipated recoil will always be greater in the heavier recoiling calibers.....this can only be minimized through maintaining constant range training(needed more often with .45). Grip fatigue is the breakdown of the grip with the recoil of each shot, causing accuracy and stability to get worse. Grip fatigue gets worse the heavier the recoiling the caliber. ......long story short, the Tim Gramins and Keith Borders OISs did not have to be high round count shootings. Borders understood the problems I outlined above, and in his interview stated that he should have slowed down his shooting and put more focus on getting accurate hits. Gramins did not, and now carries 145 rounds on his person. Gramins was a product of the competition world. Competition gaming scenarios often set up unrealistic challenges and pass it off as training for the real world. Often these steel and paper challenges influence our perception of what would be real, yet their designs are 10% taken from an OIS, and 90% made up by the instructor to challenge you further. Personally, I find that 8+1 rounds is adequate when you train for shot strings based on your own personal loadout. I used to carry a P220, and would have no problem switching back to it if the need was there, but I moved to 9mm a few years ago. I found that when using 9mm I did not have to maintain such a strict training regime, and I faired much better when I got injured and had to shoot single hand. I feel pretty confident using my Sig P239 9mm off duty and that is a 8+1 round gun. | |||
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I understand where you're coming from and see the merit in your thinking. I would add with decent JHP ammunition every duty caliber is effective if you can hit the target in a vital area. The best loads in 9, 40, 45, 357 SIG get the job done with good shot placement. Without good shot placement none will be effective. Despite our training and practice no one knows how they individually will react in the stress of a life threatening situation. Who knows if you will be facing multiple shooters with or without body armor or long guns. Who knows if you'll shoot someone 22 times with .40 like the Peter Soulis incident? Also, it's not easy to hit someone in the CNS when they're shooting at you and both of you are moving. We'd all like to think that because of our training we would but as we've seen many times people missing each other at close range despite firing multiple rounds. What if you need to get to an injured officer and have to use suppressive fire to get to them? Lastly, if God forbid you had a weapon malfunction that disabled your pistol, having a Glock 17/22/21 etc would allow you to use a backup 26/27/30/33 etc with your magazines. "Clear Eyes. Full Hearts. Can't Lose." | |||
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Unfortunately, many agencies don't have the ideal duty/BUG combo. We use classic Sigs, and the only one that really works well is the P220 duty gun with a P220c or P245 as your BUG. | |||
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| The wicked flee when no man pursueth  |
My question was not should I carry a P220, but do any of you still carry a P220. I plan to make the switch. But on the note of capacity, I carried a 1911 for years and never felt I did not have enough capacity or ammo on my belt. One positive is that I became really good at mag changes and ammo management. To answer the question of what gun I would want in a gunfight tomorrow I felt confident with every pistol I've carried, but to be honest I'd rather have a long-gun over any of them. As any of you working this job know that usually isn't an option has things evolve rapidly. With regards to pistols to me personally it's six of one half dozen the other when it comes to capacity vs caliber. Proverbs 28:1 | |||
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I did until last year. Agency converted to G17's. ______________________________ Men who carry guns for a living do not seek reward outside of the guild. The most cherished gift is a nod from his peers. | |||
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| Let's be careful out there |
I carried a 226 .40. I'd have loved a 220 carry. If you like the 220, you're comfortable with it, and you shoot it well, then carry the darned thing. I never carried anything but metal. Model 10, Ruger Service 6,model 36, p228, p 226. | |||
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Carried a 220r for a while. Carrying a 227 now with a 229r in my saddlebag. | |||
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Loves His Wife |
I was involvelved in a multi car fender bender on I35 in the town of Wyoming MN. First cop to show up was the city of Wyoming police. Killing some time waiting for the state patrol I asked him about the single stack mags he had on his belt. Could see the gun so I asked "1911?" Nope, P220. I asked him how he liked it and he said he hated it. Really? He said it's a great gun but hates the DAK trigger. Some Bureaucrat bought some salesmans pitch and ordered them without any input. I am not BIPOLAR. I don't even like bears. | |||
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We're allowed to carry a 220, 229 in 9 or 40, or 226 in 9 or 40. About half the department carries the 220. We have the option to carry a quad magazine pouch if desired but only one person does so. Our canine carries a 220, but our other one switched to a 226 in 40 for most of the reasons you cited. I carried a late nineties 220 for a while but then went to the 2340 when they first came out. I now carry a 229 in 40. Proverbs 21:31 | |||
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Not that its a P-220 but my early years on the job I carried a dept issued H&K P-7 M8. We had the option of carrying dual or quad mag pouches. I never felt out gunned and would carry that set up on duty today if I could. | |||
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| my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives |
We allow them and have several folks who carry a P220. The single stack 45 crowd is dominated by 1911's (this is Texas after all), But they are reliable, accurate, and lighter than a 1911. If you are comfortable with it, it is still a good choice, However, the older ones' slides will rust when carried alot and benefit greatly, maintenance wise, from a more corrosion resistant coating like nickel or ceracoat. I also have found the original 7 round magazines are better than the 8 rounders, longevity and reliability wise. ***************************** "I don't own the night, I only operate a small franchise" - Author unknown | |||
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| Member |
Not me although if I had a choice, I would... As of midnight 30 September 2016, my "grandfathered" authority for approved carry of the P220 was discontinued. Agency went with Glocks (since 1997-8), currently 40 S&W transitioning to 9mm. Even qualified with the P220 that last day. I guess I need to buy the Sig a gold watch for retirement. ☺ My personally owned duty P220 has gone through well over an estimated 20,000 rounds with no failures at all. Always trusted the Sig on me in some pretty shady places and risky ops. Nothing wrong with Glocks, first pistol I ever bought way back in the 80s; just not my first choice, if given a choice. Lots of "what if" scenarios but I always prepped for the close encounter where/when I would only be able to get off a single round and possibly only a wounding shot to an extremity. I want that first shot to have effect/impact. Or same scenario and bad guy is wearing a vest; I want the vest (or extremity) shot to have enough effect to slow the bad guy for follow up action. I always try to prepare as best I can but whatever the situation, I am confident to solve the problem with whatever I may or may not have on me. At that moment, it's not like you have a choice. Semper Fi Madmatt SIGs, BHPs, CZ PCRs, HKs, 1911s, S&W 625-3 45 ACP, HK/Benelli M1S90, Colts 6721/LE6920, Steyr SBSs, Emerson and ZT Knives, Rubicons, Harleys & APBTs | |||
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Member |
I've been thinking about this today. My PD issues/allows 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP...so I am limited to those calibers. I'm fairly attached to the 45 ACP. I have had the pleasure/displeasure of being around lots of people/dogs/vehicles who have been shot during my tenure and have attended several autopsies. Lately, 9mm is the pistol caliber du jour again, and yes, the modern bullets like HST and Ranger-T have done great things for it; however, it still does not create the trauma of 45 ACP (or 357 Magnum). "Pistol bullets poke holes, Rilfes...blah blah blah," yes, I know. I don't mean to start a caliber debate, but I love the 45 ACP and trust it more than 9mm so we will leave it at that. I switched to a Glock 17 when I was a K9 handler because: - Surefire X300 attached to gun in an ALS holster - More rounds meant less reloading when holding a dog back with my left hand - Holding same dog meant one hand shooting more probable and 9mm has less recoil making it more controllable - Gun was easier to clean and keep dog hair out of My Glock 17 is serving me well right now and I'm currently in a detective assignment. The reasons listed above are still very valid reasons to stick with it. However, I am no longer a dog handler. I thought about going back to the 1911, but for a number of reasons I'd rather not. I have my Glock 21 still, but I've always found its size to make it a bit clunky. Nothing wrong with it (I even had Boresight do a grip reduction) it just isn't what I want to carry. So here are some reasons I want to switch to the P220: - I trust the caliber, 45 ACP, more than I do 9mm - I don't care for having a WML mounted to my gun and not having to hold on to a bouncing and barking critter has negated my need for it - It's light enough not to feel like a boat anchor but heavy enough to dampen recoil - I shoot the P220 quite well and have a great deal of faith in the platform (I've been a Sig armorer since 2003...as well as Glock, Colt and a few others) - It has wood grips and fits my hand great - Everything about the gun feels right. There is something to this subjective intrinsic value that just cannot be explained logically. Make sense?[/QUOTE] retired 2 and a half years now but I carried a 1994 SIG P220 for the reasons you state...had others I tried but came back to the P220 almost mirroring completely your reasons... I did switch to the newer Mac-Gar made 8 round magazines in my W German made version to get the extra round...I even found the 10 rounders worked but didn't care for carrying the pistol with them...perhaps in your bag if you feel the need...good luck with your choice.  Bill Fast is Fine...Accuracy is Final *SiGARMS GSR Revolution STX *SiG/Sauer*P220*P226*P228*P230*P245*SPC2009*P365 NRA Benefactor Life/LEAA Life Membership | |||
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...to add...I didn't end up keeping the G10 checkered grips...the Piranhas seem better but on this particular pistol, I stuck with the OE plastic checkered stocks.  Bill Fast is Fine...Accuracy is Final *SiGARMS GSR Revolution STX *SiG/Sauer*P220*P226*P228*P230*P245*SPC2009*P365 NRA Benefactor Life/LEAA Life Membership | |||
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| Junior Member |
I hope your overconfidence in your ability never has to experience a fight for your life. Your analysis and opinion of these incidents is lacking. In the Gramins shoooting he fired a total of 33 rounds making 17 hits. Apparently all that praying he did was really effective! The first 13 rounds were fired outbound through a vehicle windshield in three distinct holes tracking up and to the left as the offender ran up to the driver side window to fire his last round through the drivers door window through the drivers seat. Gramins then exited the vehicle and went forward and off to the left flank of Maddox as Maddox was obtaining a second handgun from the vehicle. Gramins then fired on the run at Maddox and continued firing as he went past Maddox and around the rear of his squad car to the opposite side. Gramins then intentionally tried to skip rounds under his squad car to hit Maddox as he was ducking up and down on the opposite side of the squad car. Realizing this was not effective and with the knowledge he was on his last magazine Gramins then dropped prone and was able to put 3 rounds in Maddox CNS in rapid succession to end the fight. At this point Maddox had been hit 14 times already (must have been that praying again not the countless hours of training and preparation) with 230 grain Speer Gold Dot .45 Caliber ammunition. Wait perhaps you missed the fact that Maddox fired 22 rounds at Gramins just like what happpens in the "Competition World". Your lack of comprehension of limiting an opponent with fire and taking available hits is bewildering. Ironically Gramins has never done competition shooting but is a Swat Officer, Sniper and Sniper Team leader on his agencies Swat team. Perhaps the reason he carries so much ammo is because he works in the police district that includes Chicago. Not sure what it is like in your agencies jurisdiction but I attached a video link for you to watch to see what goes on around here. http://conservativevideos.com/...o-sounds-like-video/ You could also take the Dallas Incident or San Bernardino Incident and realize the good old days of not having a realistic load out are over. Ive also attached a podcast http://proarmspodcast.com/090-...-skokie-police-dept/ Please take the time to conduct research and inform yourself before making assumptions and thus placing misguided opinions and analysis on another officers shooting. If you have been involved in an OIS I would welcome a response detailing your incident(s). I make it a point to learn from incidents not critique a winner of a gun battle. Mas Ayoob, Dean Scoville and Charles Remsberg, a fairly well respected trio, have all seen the Medical Examiners reports and Crime scene photos and videos prior to writing their articles. Its unfortunate you fail to recognize tactics and the real world and speed of combat. I hope you have an open mind and can study learn and prepare for reality as your day may come. Stay Safe! | |||
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