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SIG's 'n Surefires
Picture of M-11
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M-11 Jr carries a 220 as his duty weapon.



"Common sense is wisdom with its sleeves rolled up." -Kyle Farnsworth
"Freedom of Speech does not guarantee freedom from consequences." -Mike Rowe
"Democracies aren't overthrown, they're given away." -George Lucas
 
Posts: 6880 | Location: IL, due south of the Arch | Registered: April 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Novice Elk Harvester
Picture of ronnied316
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I started carrying my 220ST on duty in 2015. When I first got to my agency, we were carrying the S&W DA/SA pistols, and I was carrying a 4566TSW. We then switched to the M&P platform, with the option of carrying personally-owned firearms. So the 220ST came out of the safe, and onto my hip, as I can't say enough bad things about the M&P trigger The 220 is the first pistol I ever bought, and happens to be the pistol I am most proficient with.

That being said, I'm currently waiting on a 320RX, and when that gets here, I'll be retiring the ST back to the safe.


"SUCCESS only comes before WORK in the dictionary"
 
Posts: 412 | Location: Kitsap Peninsula, WA | Registered: July 10, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of whododat
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I have a choice of a Glock 21, 30SF or a 27 while on duty. I chose the 30SF (with Glock 21 mags as extras)due to my current assignment. However, I am qualified to carry a Glock 19, Sig P229 and a P220 off duty. Lately I have been carrying my older P229 in 357 Sig with at least 1 extra magazine off duty. I am not sure I would be comfortable carrying a P220 on duty due to the limited capacity and would hate to see any brothers in blue or lawful carrying citizens, run short of ammo at the wrong time. Times have certainly changed. Whatever decision you make, stay safe out there.


Because son, it is what you are supposed to do.
 
Posts: 1865 | Location: Escaped to TN | Registered: October 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jack32586
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I sold my P220 SAO shortly after buying it. I've had several Sigs and love the feel and reliability. But I also like the SAO 1911 type action. Thought the 220 SAO was the answer to my prayers. But....Couldn't keep my damn thumb off the slide lock when shooting it, and way too old to change. Went to M&P, cause everyone else did, but I've always hated it for no good reason. Then Sig Legion 226 SAO came out. They specifically addressed the slide lock issue. I am now in heaven. In fact I bought two, I don't know why. Pro Force called me today, said the one I ordered (forgot about) several months ago is in. I don't NEED two. I damn sure don't need three. But one in tactical rig, one in truck vault and one on belt...sorta makes sense right? Its alot to drag to the range, and a whole lot to get past the wife. She's way over the "tax write off" excuse
 
Posts: 211 | Location: S/W Florida | Registered: October 10, 2016Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Deputy 617
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Just turned in my issued two tone P220R Carry model that I had while working plain clothes. Went back to patrol as a Sergeant. Our standard issue for uniformed duty is the P220R full size. Darn my luck (wink, wink), when I transferred back... All we had in the armory was one of our older non railed W. German P220's. So... I am forced to make due with it. Hahaha!


SIG SAUER...... Get you some!
 
Posts: 369 | Location: Kansas City | Registered: July 17, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by snipert:
quote:
Originally posted by Fuego220:
quote:
Originally posted by dcowboyscr:
I know we can look at statistics and the average number of rounds fired in each gunfight and all that but in this day and age no way would I carry an 8+1 pistol and 4 magazines for a total of 41 rounds when there are better options that double your capacity.

https://www.policeone.com/poli...-of-ammo-on-the-job/


If you look at the details of the Gramins shooting, he went through so much ammo because he used a "spray and pray" model for his OIS. It wasn't until he had depleted most of his ammo, that he realized he had better start actually taking aim at his target. The same thing happened in the Officer Keith Borders shooting. He was also using a Glock 21, and was down to his last magazine before he started to take better aim.

For many years, officers have done quite well with low capacity revolvers, even against long guns. Most LE and civilian handgun training now days stresses firing until the threat is gone. This is a pretty sound approach to stopping a threat, however in an actual shooting this technique tends to cause the shooter to fire more rapidly than they can control and burn through their magazine rather quickly. The other observable issue is the psychological effect of having a high capacity pistol often causes the shooter to waste ammo in a gun fight. This issue has been observed as far back as WWII when the US Army upper brass was hesitant to adopt the M1 Garand for fear that it would cause the solder to waste ammo in semiauto mode versus the more purposeful action of using the bolt action Springfield 1903. Battle field tests indeed showed that US GIs indeed burned through much more ammo with the Garand than the Springfield, with no increase in enemy casualties.

One thing I will say that I have observed in OIS reports that I have read from my agency, along with many other Federal agencies is that the .45acp is pretty effective IF, and only IF you hit the target in a good spot(On the flip side, our agency shootings where the officer was using 9mm, and made good shots were also quite effective). One problem that I have with a lot of trainees trying to use either the P220 or P227 is that they have a great deal of trouble hitting 8" steel beyond 20yrds due to anticipated recoil jerk and grip fatigue. Anticipated recoil will always be greater in the heavier recoiling calibers.....this can only be minimized through maintaining constant range training(needed more often with .45). Grip fatigue is the breakdown of the grip with the recoil of each shot, causing accuracy and stability to get worse. Grip fatigue gets worse the heavier the recoiling the caliber.

......long story short, the Tim Gramins and Keith Borders OISs did not have to be high round count shootings. Borders understood the problems I outlined above, and in his interview stated that he should have slowed down his shooting and put more focus on getting accurate hits. Gramins did not, and now carries 145 rounds on his person. Gramins was a product of the competition world. Competition gaming scenarios often set up unrealistic challenges and pass it off as training for the real world. Often these steel and paper challenges influence our perception of what would be real, yet their designs are 10% taken from an OIS, and 90% made up by the instructor to challenge you further.

Personally, I find that 8+1 rounds is adequate when you train for shot strings based on your own personal loadout. I used to carry a P220, and would have no problem switching back to it if the need was there, but I moved to 9mm a few years ago. I found that when using 9mm I did not have to maintain such a strict training regime, and I faired much better when I got injured and had to shoot single hand. I feel pretty confident using my Sig P239 9mm off duty and that is a 8+1 round gun.


I hope your overconfidence in your ability never has to experience a fight for your life.
Your analysis and opinion of these incidents is lacking. In the Gramins shoooting he fired a total of 33 rounds making 17 hits. Apparently all that praying he did was really effective! The first 13 rounds were fired outbound through a vehicle windshield in three distinct holes tracking up and to the left as the offender ran up to the driver side window to fire his last round through the drivers door window through the drivers seat. Gramins then exited the vehicle and went forward and off to the left flank of Maddox as Maddox was obtaining a second handgun from the vehicle. Gramins then fired on the run at Maddox and continued firing as he went past Maddox and around the rear of his squad car to the opposite side. Gramins then intentionally tried to skip rounds under his squad car to hit Maddox as he was ducking up and down on the opposite side of the squad car. Realizing this was not effective and with the knowledge he was on his last magazine Gramins then dropped prone and was able to put 3 rounds in Maddox CNS in rapid succession to end the fight. At this point Maddox had been hit 14 times already (must have been that praying again not the countless hours of training and preparation) with 230 grain Speer Gold Dot .45 Caliber ammunition. Wait perhaps you missed the fact that Maddox fired 22 rounds at Gramins just like what happpens in the "Competition World". Your lack of comprehension of limiting an opponent with fire and taking available hits is bewildering. Ironically Gramins has never done competition shooting but is a Swat Officer, Sniper and Sniper Team leader on his agencies Swat team. Perhaps the reason he carries so much ammo is because he works in the police district that includes Chicago. Not sure what it is like in your agencies jurisdiction but I attached a video link for you to watch to see what goes on around here.
http://conservativevideos.com/...o-sounds-like-video/
You could also take the Dallas Incident or San Bernardino Incident and realize the good old days of not having a realistic load out are over.
Ive also attached a podcast
http://proarmspodcast.com/090-...-skokie-police-dept/
Please take the time to conduct research and inform yourself before making assumptions and thus placing misguided opinions and analysis on another officers shooting. If you have been involved in an OIS I would welcome a response detailing your incident(s). I make it a point to learn from incidents not critique a winner of a gun battle.
Mas Ayoob, Dean Scoville and Charles Remsberg, a fairly well respected trio, have all seen the Medical Examiners reports and Crime scene photos and videos prior to writing their articles. Its unfortunate you fail to recognize tactics and the real world and speed of combat. I hope you have an open mind and can study learn and prepare for reality as your day may come. Stay Safe!


Skokie Illinois, where Gamins works, is NOT part of Chicago. It is an upper middle class neighborhood suburb north of Chicago. It is relatively low crime. The video clip of the guns shots is NOT representative of what goes on in Chicago. IRRC, that clip was from an area on the southside of Chicago.
 
Posts: 5809 | Location: Chicago | Registered: August 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ajp3jeh
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Since 1998 or so. Went to a stainless gun (skinny rail) in 2002. Then a P220ST in 2004 or so. Then a P220ST Elite in ~2006. Finally got a long slide 220 with fixed night sights around 2009 or so and have been carrying it ever since.


AKA John E. Hearne

"Shoot deliberately" - Wyatt Earp
"Tache/psyche effect - a polite way of saying 'you suck.'" - GG
"The 8th Marines dominate an environment. You, with your pistol, merely exist." - GG
http://www.dvctargets.com - Promoting excellence and realisim in combative shooting.
 
Posts: 1750 | Location: Northern Mississippi | Registered: November 06, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Whack-Job
Whisperer
Picture of 18DAI
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I chose single stack 45s - S&W 4506-1, 4566, 4513TSW and carried them for most of my career. I always carried two extra mags on my belt, more in my bag and the 870 in the car. I felt confident in my ability to employ my handgun and shotgun.

Now retired, I employ my S&W Chief's Special 45 and one mag on my belt. It works for me.

And after working many GSW homicide cases I subscribed to the theory that I would be out of time, long before I was out of ammo - no matter what I was carrying. Coupled with the understanding that I would likely be the 2nd person to know I was in a fight, I found 25 rounds of 45 on my person to be adequate.

Thank God I never had to find out if I was correct. Good luck with your decision! Stay safe! Regards 18DAI


7+1 Rounds of hope and change
 
Posts: 4231 | Registered: August 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of ajp3jeh
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I think a lot of the "capacity" attitude depends on where you started.

I started with a six-shot Ruger GP-100 which I carried for seven years. Compared to the Ruger, my P220 offered 50% more rounds and reloaded much, much faster.

I carry three spare magazines which is worlds ahead of where I was when I started with my revolver and two speed reloaders (loops weren't allowed by policy as they might upset the public)


AKA John E. Hearne

"Shoot deliberately" - Wyatt Earp
"Tache/psyche effect - a polite way of saying 'you suck.'" - GG
"The 8th Marines dominate an environment. You, with your pistol, merely exist." - GG
http://www.dvctargets.com - Promoting excellence and realisim in combative shooting.
 
Posts: 1750 | Location: Northern Mississippi | Registered: November 06, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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