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A lot of valuable information here. I'm going to put together a compilation, likely in chronological order, of information regarding the evolution of Sig P226 magazines with the intent of showing when various magazines were sold. My intent would be to pull together a "working document" that once perfected as best we can based upon our group knowledge I would share with Sig Sauer in NH and potentially also in Germany for their review and comment. I want to get something reasonably definitive pulled together. This would be of value to many, I'm sure. | |||
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| Member |
And at that point you have what? there is not a chance in hell (I'll actually bet real money or even better give you a letter with 226 mags certifying I got them pre 94) that Sig USA or Sig Germany is going to give you a letter that describes the actual date of mfg. of a specific magazine. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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| Member |
As someone in MA, I would be perfectly comfortable with all the mags, except the one on the right. It is known by Sig people that the earliest mags just said “Sig Sauer” with witness holes on the back. Then you had “Sig Sauer P226” with witness holes on the back. There is also a Mecgar 17 round preban that says “Patent Pending” on the side. The postban version of that mag has the patent number on it, which you would find as post AWB. The 20 round SWAT mags are also preban. I only recall the P228 as having the zipperback and then progressing to dovetail shown in your pic. If you google, you will find a write up from some well respected people on another forum. Happy to share if you email me | |||
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| Member |
You know, you have repeatedly criticized me or otherwise written negative posts about what I am trying to do here. Why is that? And let me add that you have no idea who I am nor what I am capable of accomplishing. Please, if you are unable to add value here, just do me a favor and move on. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
You think SIG-Sauer US and Europe are going to have an email exchange with you with an eye towards creating some kind of definitive document about how to identfy pre-ban magazines? Not going to happen. Why should they care? Trust me, they won't. You'll likely get the courtesy of an initial response, containing less information than you've received in this thread, and then that'll be it. There won't be any back-and-forth email conversations, nor will there be any conference calls. There's nothing more that we can tell you. Just take it easy, please. And if you think you're going to be prosecuted for possessing magazines of which there is no clear indication of when they were manufactured, you can relax. That's not going to happen. If you're that concerned, the just sell the magazines. ____________________________________________________ "I am your retribution." - Donald Trump, speech at CPAC, March 4, 2023 | |||
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| Member |
I suspect that you are not a lawyer nor an expert witness by any means, but thanks for your, no doubt, well-meaning advice and warm welcome to this forum. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
What I am, is the owner of this forum, and you can take your smarmy attitude elsewhere. I have far, far more experience in dealing with SIG-Sauer and knowing how they will react to anal retentive queries from people who press them for information on things which do not benefit them as a company. I don't need to be a lawyer to recognize the kind of behavior you're exhibiting here, nor to accurately predict the indifference with which your search for specific answers will be met. I am telling you flat-out- SIG-Sauer could not possibly care any less about your anxieties over products they sold in the previous century. And I just love how you expect to be welcomed warmly to this forum, when you didn't even have the courtesy to introduce yourself. You just came in here and started banging away for information, but that's perfectly excusable, isn't it? Again, if you are just certain that the big, bad magazine police are gonna fire up the prosecution machine over your handful of pistol mags which are likely pre-ban, well, then, you have two choices- live with the anxiety, or sell the magazines. | |||
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Shall Not Be Infringed |
Para IS Absolutely Right....Not that he needs me or ANYONE else to vouch for him! The facts are that SIG will not / cannot even provide a manufacturing date for a Pre-Ban Pistol, let alone a magazine, and a Pistol has a Serial Number! In this case, we're talking about an issue that only affects a handful of states, Worldwide! To use a phrase 'They Don't Care, AND They Don't Have To'! The magazines in question weren't even manufactured in this country, and SIG-USA doesn't even really do business with SIG-GmbH anymore. Sooo, there's NO way....Ain't Gonna' Happen! If you want to be absolutely safe, sell that last 'sketchy' mag with the house, just like you'd do with a Gun Safe you either didn't want to, or couldn't move to your new house! This, or reconsider the move to a GDC Ban state!  ____________________________________________________________ If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 2024....Make America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die! | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
While I am not a lawyer, I get the impression that this guy is, and I am not being complimentary when I say that. | |||
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| Member |
I understand this of course. But often people move without consideration of cost of living or other aspects. Glad it worked out for you! I agree worse things than a 10 round mag limit. Honestly most of my mags and guns are low capacity anyway. I did for a long time ( nearly all my life) live in Nee York so I dealt with a ten round maglimit before. But in NY at least there was a ton more issues with gun ownership and other factors that made it untenable after a while | |||
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| Member |
Well, well, well. That's really great. "Smarmy attitude", "anal retentive", I'm sure I missed a few other ad hominem attacks and you know what they say about those who resort to such tactics, right? And all because I had the temerity to push back a bit on the negativity and decidedly unconstructive criticisms that I received in response to my stated desire to pull together something, including reaching out to Sig, that I would share here and that would be of value to others with similar questions. In fact, it was and is my intent not only to see what information I can obtain from Sig but to also engage in some legal research (including any existing case law) for the state in which I am interested (and to also share that info). As to the assertions that I am essentially a dummy for trying to get anything out of Sig -- well those assertions are certainly NOT facts, they are opinions. Further they are opinions that I think were put forth in an unfriendly manner especially given my stated desire to share whatever I came up with here. Frankly, it seems to me that a much more civilized response would have been something along the lines of "I understand why you would like to obtain information from Sig and why such information would be helpful, but in my experience / opinion you will not likely receive any helpful response from Sig so you may be wasting your time". In any event, I will not be deterred from pursuing my objective of pulling together the best write up / algorithm I can and to the extent I think I've been able to put something of value together I will share it here. In the meantime, thanks to those who helped out by providing useful information and other suggested avenues to follow. | |||
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| Member |
My offer still stands as a bet about your chances for success. Let us know how you do with Sig. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
No, you're no dummy, but 'smarmy' is correct, with this "You're not a lawyer nor an expert witness, but thanks for the clumsy attempt at helping" stuff. It's not about your "push back"; it's about the smirking tone that indicates you won't be bothered with the opinions of people who you sought out. I am not inclined to tolerate too much of this kind of thing. I see no reason to put up with it. Sure thing. You'll do great. Keep us posted. | |||
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| Lead slingin' Parrot Head  |
sig2sig, first, welcome to the forum. There have indeed been discussions of pre ban magazines over the years, but the forum software auto-pruned them long ago. I have some info to share as well, but I think I'll hold off until I see how this dust storm settles. Before you dismiss some of the opinions or comments here, know this; SIGforum is a discussion forum and members are allowed to disagree, within certain expectations of the owners/ moderators. Not every response or disagreement will be candy-coated, nor are they required to be. As a new member, it is best advised that you read and post questions...but refrain from "shaking the tree". Although not many, over the years we have seen our share of new members join up and then immediately attempt to become crusaders while "rearranging the furniture" and telling us where it should go. My advice would be to stop, listen, and consider...before taking action. Also, you should understand that, over the years and at different points in time, SIG Sauer has maintained a presence on the forum with a few different employees participating, although, for the most part, their participation has been infrequent. There have even been isolated examples of SIG CSRs referencing the forum info or referring customers to the forum. SIG Sauer has ample opportunity to interact with the forum, and both share their knowledge as well as learn from ours...if they choose to. Among the several members who interact directly, and, in some cases, regularly, with SIG Sauer, is Parabellum. He knows of which he speaks. Personally, I've enjoyed and welcomed SIG's interactions with the forum in the past, and only wish they would continue to do so...but I think I understand at least some of their reasons for not doing so now. I'm sure you must have certain skill sets and proficient at them, but before you go all crusader on us, stop to consider the facts and experiences of the forum members who have been here for many years and have witnessed the interactions with SIG Sauer. Again, welcome to the forum.  | |||
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| Member |
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread... Well, ignoring this maxim, there are a couple of points I'd make as a recovering attorney. First, no one should want to "buy" a criminal charge. In an anti-gun state (or jurisdiction) you are likely to be presumed guilty if a question about compliance with the gun laws is raised. If you are in that situation, you need to have the evidence to support your position, as a practical matter. A receipt for the particular magazine showing the purchase date would be such evidence. Absent that, perhaps an opinion by a recognized expert. The safest course, as David Lee notes above, is to not take any magazine above 10 rounds into NY or a state with similar laws. | |||
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
Being as I spent 55 years in a ban state, NY I was subject to buying pre ban magazines for all manner of pistols and rifles. I did buy several P228 magazines on GB from a seller out of State which wore the LE/ Government stamp. I sent them back and he returned my money. Last straw was the ruling by King Cuomo making any mags above 10 round illegal. I sold and gave them all away, moved out. I had several dozen pre ban P226 magazines. A few of the SWAT mags as well. | |||
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
The 5th magazine above, has drawn the attention of a few Members. Being as it is unmarked, there is no telling when it was made. It could be iffy. Tell you what to do with your 4 pre bans, as you approach the border of your new home State, stop and load them up fully. Thats 1/3 rd box of ammo per magazine. Enough to take over a 3rd world country. Rack a round into the pipe of your P226 and decock, holster. Drive on with confidence knowing if you get in a exchange with a bad guy, as soon as he's done fireing 10 @ you, you still got 5 more to send his way. Remember, these are Wow capacity. In the words of Little Bill to English Bob, " Hot aint it". Little Bill said it to Mr. Beauchamp...This message has been edited. Last edited by: David Lee, | |||
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| Member |
Yes. And in that regard I think it could be simplistic to assume that even if a magazine is preban (what does that mean exactly?) that you are "good to go". Similarly the notion that the burden of proof is on the prosecution's side is also simplistic -- when you are charged with a crime you need to mount a defense regardless of which party is burdened. Even in a best case, you may end up with tens of thousands of dollars of legal defense-related costs to pay. As to what may constitute a "good to go" preban magazine in a state in which such preban magazines are ostensibly "grandfathered" under the law, that, I think, may not be so clear. And a review of the legislative history may not provide an easy answer. It could be that when the two sides negotiating the language of any grandfathering clause agreed on certain language that they had two very different interpretations in mind especially if statue's language was left somewhat vague. For example, if a grandfathered preban magazine is required to be owned prior to the onset of the Federal AWB does that mean it needs to be owned in the particular state, owned by current owner or, perhaps, does it simply mean that regardless of who was the first owner and where that ownership occurred that the magazine needs to have been owned by anyone (including a retailer? wholesaler?) prior to the onset of the AWB? There could be a multitude of permutations here making any clear cut interpretation of a somewhat ambiguous statue problematic. Thus the need not only to understand the facts regarding a particular magazine (the purpose of my original post) but to also understand fully the law and how it has come to be interpreted by the courts in a specific state. I'm afraid at the end of the day there may NOT be a really safe (and inexpensive) way of negotiating this minefield. Still, I intend further investigation, at least at this point (and that investigation, beyond my own exploration of case history, likely would involve discussions with attorney(s) fully familiar with the territory). Thanks for the "reality check". | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Like the guy here that spent several weeks to get a broken frame pistol 'officially destroyed' and then sent the BATFE 'evidence of destruction', this is complete waste of time. SIG doesn't care and won't give you the time of day on this. Most LEOs won't know or care either. | |||
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| Member |
And now we have "For example, if a grandfathered preban magazine is required to be owned prior to the onset of the Federal AWB does that mean it needs to be owned in the particular state, owned by current owner or, perhaps, does it simply mean that regardless of who was the first owner and where that ownership occurred that the magazine needs to have been owned by anyone (including a retailer? wholesaler?) prior to the onset of the AWB? There could be a multitude of permutations here making any clear cut interpretation of a somewhat ambiguous statue problematic. " I know you can type but do you have any concept of how to read? Let's start with what State are we discussing? We can then all read the actual Statue involved and see what is in that language. It's nonsense to discuss this in the abstract. In some States it actual possession prior to, in others it mfg prior to and in some it does not matter or there are other rules. If a State merely adopted the Federal language (reproduced here so you can practice reading "Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection." There is however a clear legal principle about this that has been applied by every single US court that ambiguity is resolved in favor of the defendant. So what State and then we can all see what is the language and stop this nonsense of hypothesizing. Since to my knowledge and research someone being charged SOLELY for this with ambiguity on the date of mfg. has never happened the case law is likely a little thin. But whatever. Let's see what statue you are up against and then we can move forward with trying to help you despite your attitude. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
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