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| Member |
I tried googling, and I tried searching here on the forum. I found one old thread from 2017 when Texas DPS switched to the P320 but nothing else. Does anybody here know for sure what ammo the Texas DPS troopers are carrying in their SIG P320 these days? I ask because just the other day there was an DPS officer involved shooting. A woman just outside of Austin in a stolen car. She got out, pointed a gun at the trooper. Trooper prevailed. | ||
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E tan e epi tas |
I promise I don’t mean this to sound dismissive or rude and I just mean the sentiment. Does it really matter? Pretty much everybody runs Gold Dot, HST, Crit Duty or whatever Win is calling their SXT or whatever line and they all perform about the same. I mean as long as you are running any fairly competent defensive ammo you should be about as well off as any other in a vaccum (training, luck, etc.) aside. Again this is not to poop on your thread in any way and if you simply what to know what they are running I am sure somebody will let you know. If however you are evaluating ammo for your own personal defense I just thought I would post would I have seen/experienced. Take care, shoot safe Chris "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Member |
Hornady 135 grain Critical Duty for duty rounds and the Hornady training round for quals and training. Not exactly sure why they chose it. We compared it and the 124 grain Speer Gold Dots during shooting reconstruction and the Gold Dots out performed the Hornady 99% of the time. | |||
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| Member |
The FBI adopted the same 135 GR Hornady round. It seems that 135 is becoming a go to in both 9mm and .38 SPC. I haven't seen the ballistic data showing why. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
Barrier penetration, perhaps. | |||
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| Member |
Based on what standards? To what degree? Penetration? Expansion? Weight retention? There are a lot of things to consider and different agencies have their own priorities. The FBI obviously made their selection based on their beliefs on that is important. One thing about the FBI is that cost is rarely a factor. | |||
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| Member |
Cslinger: people who don't want to make statements don't make statements about not making statements. I just asked a question. | |||
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Sigforum K9 handler |
Interesting tidbit, the FBI originally chose the Gold Dot G2 147 grain. Matter of fact, they handed a list of firearms feature “must haves” and the Gold Dot G2 and said “give us a pistol”. The contract wound up as we all know to be the 19M. Fast forward about a year, and something adverse happened. None of the boys at Redstone Arsenal can tell me what it was, but something happened. They began shopping and viola, the Critical Duty won out. I can tell you that at least two Federal adopters of the Critical Duty are currently testing replacement rounds. And I know one is about to adopt........the Gold Dot G2. This is despite the results with the Critical Duty being overwhelming positive in actual shootings. Same agency has shot a bunch of people with their issued Winchester rifle round. And now that ammo is junk and can’t be trusted according to HQ, despite being really fatal in the field. Bottom line, just because this or that federal agency adopts a piece of gear, round or load, don’t read a lot into it as to the “why” being solely quality. G2 and the Critical Duty are great rounds. | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
OP, I’m a retired cop, when we were looking at new caliber the GD prevailed over other ammo. This was 2003 or so…we had been carrying the P226 in 9mm and we went to the 357SIG. Times change, staff members who know nothing about guns get in charge of things…then ammo began getting really expensive in 357SIG, so we began transitioning back to 9mm. They stuck with the GD because the ammo could be bought from the state on NC on contract much cheaper than any other round/brand. Just like a lot of departments who switch guns often, every thing is driven by the almighty dollar. When we were thinking of swapping back to P226 in 9mm, the dept tried several other weapons and the G19 was recommended by four of five gun guys/firearms instructors…the P226 won because Sig said they would swap guns even. So there was no cost in new holsters. I’d say that the DPS was probably given a very nice price for purchase vs actual performance that weighed most about their choice. I’ve seen a lot of tests and most of the top names make ammo that performs very similarly. I use GD, because I know the performance…and someone gave me several boxes before I retired…once it’s gone I will find something similar and in stock! "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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For real? |
We get Winchester because it’s cheap on the state vendor list. Hornady, federal and speer are more expensive Not minority enough! | |||
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Member |
Para nailed it. Texas DPS wanted a round with similar capabilities to the 357Sig round they were moving away from. The Hornady Critical Duty FlexLock bullet is heavy and provides rigid strength. Additionally, the heavier-for-caliber lead core is mechanically locked to the jacket and the heavier bullet expands and maintains enough integrity to punch through tough barriers without the core and jacket separating from each other, as they often do in traditional “cup and core” designs. The result is a barrier-resistant bullet that still offers suitable expansion and penetration — an ideal match for lone, remote trooper duty conditions. ______________________________________________ Life is short. It’s shorter with the wrong gun… | |||
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| Freethinker |
I am confused and don’t know from that exchange which load was involved in that incident: the Gold Dot or Critical Duty? It is, however, an interesting anecdote that supports the opinion that some of us have about handgun cartridges, which is that power does matter. “Oh, power doesn’t matter.” Yes, it does matter, and for reasons like that. If a bullet bounces off someone’s skull, it’s because it wasn’t powerful enough. According to the Hornady site, the 135 grain 9mm Critical Duty load has a muzzle velocity of 1010 feet per second from a 4 inch barrel for 306 foot-pounds of kinetic energy. The 124 grain +P Gold Dot has a MV of 1220 fps, for 410 ft-lb KE, or 34% more than the Critical Duty. We can argue about whether the CD might in general perform better through barriers than the GD due to its design and construction, but once the bullet has made it through the barrier and retained whatever energy it has to deliver to the primary target, it’s very likely that the more energy a bullet has to start with, especially 1/3 more, the more it’s going to have when it hits the primary target. If the Gold Dot bounced off the BG’s skull, what would the Critical Duty with its much lower energy have done? If the CD did not penetrate the skull, how would the GD have performed? The 306 ft-lb of the Critical Duty is pretty anemic for 9mm loads these days, and is about the same as, or even less than, the 115 grain training ammo my agency uses. I’m also curious how many CD failures to expand we never see on YouTube like the one I observed at an event put on by Hornady using actual calibrated 10% gelatin. It obviously makes no difference to me what other people rely on, but it will nevertheless be interesting to watch these discussions in the future. And as a personal note, I’ve fired my own favorite self-defense handgun load, the 125 grain 357 SIG Gold Dot, through a windshield, and it blew through the rear window as well very handily. Would it have bounced off the perp’s skull? I can’t know, of course, but I doubt that would have happened with its nearly 500 ft-lb of initial muzzle energy.This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund, ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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| Member |
My agency has made some very strange bullet selections through the years. One guy in Admin gets something in his head and we end up with a new duty round. You'd be surprised who is actually a gun guy and who isn't. Admin guy, former SF and he's not a gun guy. Another one, current instructor and former SWAT, not a gun guy (this guy told the Chief we didn't have to sight in the new rifles because they do that at the factory). LE is not necessarily the go to place for firearms advice. DPR | |||
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| Freethinker |
This is something that needs to be carved on a stone tablet someplace. I’m not going to crap right next to my own nest by providing details, but one of the most foolish decisions regarding guns and ammunition I have observed in recent times was made by an LE agency head not far away. (No, not the agency I work for. We have a great guy now.) And even when the decision makers are “gun guys” (or gals), look at all the differing opinions and faulty ideas that are expressed on this forum—and the people here are generally smarter and better informed than the average shooter and gun owner. The “chack-chack” advantage of a pump shotgun has been ridiculed to death (hopefully), and yet I knew another agency head who thought that was a valid reason to issue them to its officers. ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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Frangas non Flectes |
I forget where, but I heard from someone in person sometime within the past five years that a police officer personally recommended a pump shotgun to him for that very reason. Yes, this extends to military as well. It's for sure A Thing that folks who come out of the military who never held a firearm outside of it, get the impression that they know the first thing about what a citizen need, or doesn't, need or ought to use. The M&P world is not always necessarily the first place we should consult about our firearm needs, and yet because it's critical to the job and one of the most visible things that differentiates You from Us, it seems so many go running to that world for what they ought to be doing. That said, I've been carrying Hornady Critical Defense for a long time, and after checking defensives ammo prices, I see they've come back out of upper orbit, so I'm going to see about ordering some Critical Duty just because. I figure if I have need to use a pistol, chances are high it will be in traffic, and punching through windshields and car doors with terminal effect is high on my "must do" list for ammo.This message has been edited. Last edited by: P220 Smudge, ______________________________________________ Carthago delenda est | |||
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| Junior Member |
You are comparing the 9mm 124 grain +P Gold Dot to the 135 grain Critical Duty load. I think the comparison should be with the 135 grain +P Critical Duty load. Might not change the over-all conclusion, but it will certainly make it closer. | |||
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| Member |
Still getting used to this forum software. I may have quoted in the middle of a post. It was the Critical Duty out of a sub 4" barreled P320. | |||
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| Freethinker |
Okay, I did not see that specified anywhere in the previous discussion, or perhaps overlooked it. So thank you, and a very belated welcome to the forum.  The claimed ME for the +P 135 grain CD load is 369 ft-lb, which is closer to the Gold Dot 124 grain +P, but still somewhat less. In any event, if the +P CD load bounced off a BG’s skull after passing through a car window, it’s still not too encouraging if users are adopting the load for its barrier penetration capability. Bullets’ being deflected by human skulls is fairly commonly reported in the forensic literature, but they are usually from cartridges that are significantly less powerful than any common 9mm Luger loading. But of course one incident doesn’t prove anything of value. ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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| Member |
We are getting 9mm’s in our department soon. Authorized duty rounds are Gold Dot and Hornady 135 grain +P’s. Our state authorized vendor is approx. a year out to get the Gold Dots. Hornady’s vendor…… two days. Ballistics testing seminar showed the 135*P Critical Duty doing a good job. | |||
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