Question for all of you...

Who has purchased and installed a "Competition Trigger" in a gun that you carry, even though the manufacturer of that system states that it is for "range or competition use only?"

I understand the need for the disclaimer and I respect that.

But how many of you carry a pistol for self-defense with one of these systems in it anyways?

Just curious as I am thinking of doing this with my P320C

Thanks...

With the disclaimer in mind......

How light are we talking? I shoot competition with guns that are in the Duty/Carry realm of trigger pulls per the industry. I guess you would have to define how light and the maker of the competition trigger. They aren't all created equal.

I personally think a trigger measured in ounces for carry isn't a good idea. There are too many variables that risk reliability and people often forget that a competition trigger works in conjunction with other things to favor competition shooting.

piedrarc...

The one I am looking at puts the trigger pull in the 4 lbs. range.

This is a striker fired pistol.

Gun and trigger maker are highly respected in/on SigForum.

The trigger maker claims this will not override any of the manufacturer's/pistol's internal safeties.

I do not think 4 lbs. is too light if all of the safeties remain functional per manufacturer's specs/intent.

I put the kit in my X5 and love it.

With that said I would not carry my x5, its a competition/range gun.

IMHO the trigger is too light for a carry gun.

That does not mean you could not carry it, its definitely a personal decision. Might work for you, just not for me.

Varooom

quote:

Originally posted by bozman:
piedrarc...

The one I am looking at puts the trigger pull in the 4 lbs. range.

This is a striker fired pistol.

Gun and trigger maker are highly respected in/on SigForum.

The trigger maker claims this will not override any of the manufacturer's/pistol's internal safeties.

I do not think 4 lbs. is too light if all of the safeties remain functional per manufacturer's specs/intent.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with a 4 lbs trigger for carry, I agree. That's not too light in my opinion.

I did it with my Grayguns and Lazy Wolf LEM HKs. The pull weight was around 4 lb. I felt that I could do it with LEM trigger, and I did for 6 years or so problem free.

4 lbs would be fine. My X5 comes in at 2.8.

Varooom

I wouldn't do it. Don't see the point, under the adrenaline dump of a real situation you won't notice the difference between 4 or 6lbs anyway. So long as the trigger is very "shootable" that is all that matters.

My carry guns have had trigger/action jobs but to a "duty" spec.

Personally, I've done lots of force on force training I really like the extra margin of error you get in a stressful situation with a true DA first shot. A 4lb striker does not provide much margin for error at all. A simmunition drill is still a far cry from a real shooting...but you may be very surprised where your trigger finger ends up and when.

The main problem that I see with aftermarket striker triggers is that some springs are so light that reliability can be compromised.

Putting a 17# mainspring into a P-series SIG can result in an improved DA trigger that's still gonna be twice as heavy as a competition striker trigger, but reliability WILL be an issue unless you're meticulous about keeping the pistol clean AND replacing that 17# spring frequently.

uh. no, no and no. just no.

Strambo...

I have done a fair bit of training and shoot weekly now running drills that have been described by jjones and others on this site (committed to shooting weekly as a new years resolution to make sure I am ready and able if the need ever arises).

All of my DA/SA pistols have had trigger work completed by Gray Guns except for a P6 I am currently rehabbing.

My question was more to the point of the "disclaimer" and if people thought 4 ish lbs. was too light for a carry gun and real-world use.

I hope that if I have to use my weapon I will have engrained the fundamentals enough that I will still have some trigger control and would not be blowing though it.

However, you bring up a good point. I have not had simunitions training where I was also getting shot at and having the hormones pumping through me. I have played in some pretty competitive paintball tournaments though (if that counts ).

Regardless of the trigger pull weight, if I am in a situation where adrenaline has taken over, does it really matter if it is a 4 or 8 lbs. trigger?

The purpose of the lighter, cleaner, more predictable trigger would be for accuracy reasons.

Thanks for the input. It is appreciated.

Chris O.

Thank you. Your Sig Sauer Armorer's Course DVD, as well as the OpSec DVD, have been great for my P6 rehab and have removed any fears I have of working on my pistols!

So, if I move forward with this, I would need to verify reliability is not compromised if the system employs lighter springs as opposed to trigger shapes, leverage changes with trigger bars, etc. Got it.

Thanks.

I don't understand the perception that a lighter trigger is a better trigger. It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the use of the trigger in the first place.

I'd much rather have smoothness, one that can be staged, with a clean, clear break, and a positive reset, over a light one.

As long as the trigger can be staged and pulled through without disturbing the front sight, and an identifiable rest point felt as the front sight returns to the target, how light the trigger is really doesn't matter.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I don't understand the perception that a lighter trigger is a better trigger. It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the use of the trigger in the first place.

I'd much rather have smoothness, one that can be staged, with a clean, clear break, and a positive reset, over a light one.

As long as the trigger can be staged and pulled through without disturbing the front sight, and an identifiable rest point felt as the front sight returns to the target, how light the trigger is really doesn't matter.

This is a good point. I'd rather have a crisp 6# trigger than a mushy 4#..."quality" is much more than "lightness".

Funny, I'd rather have a mushy 4 lbs trigger than a crisp 6 lbs.
Call me an anomaly but I found that pulling a trigger straight back without disturbing the sights is easier with lighter triggers than with heavier ones. Strange, ain't it?


Boz, I think the question of a safe for carry trigger pull weight cannot be discussed without considering a specific trigger system and gun's properties. There are off the shelf high end carry 1911s that come with a 3.25-3.75 lbs triggers from a factory. There are DA/SA guns that have their SA pulls at 3.5, from the factory as well. As I had mentioned, I've no mental issues carrying 3.75 to 4 lbs LEM but I now carry a Glock and I wouldn't go that low. If you're going to do an overtly stupid thing, no weight will save you, I ND'd with a DA gun and 8 lbs DA shot. That said, you get certain margins of error with certain trigger systems that you don't get with others, so maybe look at it that way.

All,

Understood about the quality aspect. This competition trigger should be a better trigger in this respect (admittedly, this is an assumption).

I will come right out an say it, I am planning on putting the GG Competition Trigger in my P320C.

I find with every Sig I own, the GG trigger/action work I have had performed by GG has made the gun easier to shoot well (speed, accuracy, repeatability).

Like I said, GG indicates this is meant for range an competition use. I believe if it improves the P320 even just a little bit, like the other trigger/action work I have had done, it will make the gun more enjoyable to shoot during training and give me more confidence that I can make the shot(s) needed with the gun (if I ever need to take a shot). The goal has always been about speed, accuracy, and repeatability (not necessary how light the trigger is).

This gun will be shot and trained with weekly.

I will put it through its paces and see if there are any issues with reliability. If necessary, I will keep the factory springs, but change the trigger, sear, over-travel stop tube, and the safety lever pin. If it still is not there, well then, I will get another P320 for carry and keep this one for range use (kinda want an X-Carry anyway).

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I don't understand the perception that a lighter trigger is a better trigger. It suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the use of the trigger in the first place.

I'd much rather have smoothness, one that can be staged, with a clean, clear break, and a positive reset, over a light one.

As long as the trigger can be staged and pulled through without disturbing the front sight, and an identifiable rest point felt as the front sight returns to the target, how light the trigger is really doesn't matter.

Some shooters press the trigger without staging it and prefer a lighter than OEM trigger pull. I have never seen a shooter shoot worse with an enhanced trigger verses an OEM trigger.

^^^^

You can have a lighter and better than OEM trigger without it being for competition, there's a middle ground.

I liked when Jeff Cooper used the phrase "Pre-occupation with inconsequential increments." I don't remember what he was referring to, but it fits here.

The difference in marksmanship between a good "duty" grade trigger (OEM or aftermarket) and a "competition" grade trigger, in a close in life or death gunfight, will truly be inconsequential. As a matter of fact, one's marksmanship ability on the square range won't be relevant at all unless you are stress-inoculated enough in training to be able to even tap into all that potential. A ND in that high-stress arena on the other hand could be life-altering for you or an innocent 3rd party.

My carry guns have action jobs (as well as my wife's revolver...best DA trigger I've ever shot), I can shoot them very well at speed. They aren't competition level. I'd personally reserve that for range/competition guns where you are trying to milk every bit out of it with no big downside.

Interesting topic that brings out some interesting opinions. Some good, some really horrible.

I am a trigger control snob. I am. The answer to most marksmanship problems is better trigger control. From this, I've learned that most people over value their level of trigger control. They have all kinds of excuses and tactical excuses of why it is ok. They have a predefined set of parameters that they spill back when the topic comes up. They have "arguments" for everything. "Real World" and "In a gunfight" are my personal favorites. All kinds of things go on. And they subscribe to the idea that "under stress" you fingers become little vienna sausages, you go deaf, dumb and blind, and drool excessively in that 1-3 feet, 1-3 rounds, and 1-3 second predetermined gunfights. When in fact, the guys that shoot people for a living in far away lands will tell you a simple truth. You'll do as you train. Or something close to it. If you are predetermined that you are a statistical gunfighter, that you will stare at the target, slap the trigger 20 times in a gun that holds 15, and shit yourself.......guess what.....you will. Those guys have already purchased the mental attitude, and that is what they will do. You will do as you train. If you train to have really good trigger control, guess how that works?

Your level of trigger control training and particular tastes season what you want or need. As Piedarc said, I don't recommend anything in ounces. I really don't recommend anything less than four pounds. Nor do I recommend anything that is "crisp" or six pounds. All of those things just set up the trigger being an on off switch. Which is probably great for the statistical gunfighter. Not so much if you have the expectation that you might have to do more than be a statistic. There's one place in my job where a 175 yard pistol shot is possible. Guess what? I can pull it off. Do you really want the statistical gunfighter coming to the rescue or the guy that knows he can make that shot without fail? Each time there is a active shooter, we tend to cry "WE NEED MORE GOOD GUYS WITH GUNS". And then when these topics come up when the heat is off, we as a shooting community hide behind false legal arguments, straw men, and everything else. I love guys that try to say "You can't justify a 20 yard shot as self defense" blah, blah. Yeah, take a look around. You can and it is pretty easy. And having an ND in a "high stress situation"????? That's a poor, and unsafe gun handling issue and not a four pound trigger issue.

Don't let your trigger become an on/off switch. Cultivate great trigger control skills. And if a "competition" trigger job does it for you, do it. I like my triggers in the 4-5 pound range with a little bit to prep in to.

That's my bag. I'm a trigger control snob.

I carry with competition triggers... or compete with carry triggers... not sure which, but the guns are the same or very similar.