Advance warning that if you're a .45 AARP devotee, this video is likely to upset you.

Watched that this afternoon. Good interview. I'm looking forward to the others in the series.

It’s clear the FBI has better research than before, and the training is improved as well. I like my 147 grain Federal hollow points (Hydra Shocks or HSTs) and I like my Speer Gold Dot 230 grain loads in .45 ACP too. Depending on what pistol I’m carrying, I live my best “.45 AARP”

Agree. There has been projectile improvement with .45 too. Such improvement is the bottom line of the Feebs 9mm adoption.

I am and I have always been fairly caliber agnostic. I enjoy a great many rounds and feel like they all have pros and cons. That said I don’t think there is any arguing with that video. As a complete system 9mm is damn near impossible to beat. The guns, the ammo available, the ease of training shooters, the forgiving nature of its recoil characteristics, capacity etc. As a complete defensive package the 9x19mm pistol has a ton in the pro column.

I did find it funny that dude gives his presentation and it comes down to “that’s great and all how much will it cost?” “We will save 500k annual…….” “SOLD!”

Look I don’t feel behind the 8 ball with really any defensive handgun or revolver as far as my life and skill is concerned but if I am recommending a gun to a new shooter or had to equip a force my advice is 9mm poly striker all the way with some kind of optic capability. It just makes sense across the spectrum. I mean I wouldn’t hunt bull moose with a Glock 17 but for most other things it’s hard to beat.

Good interview.

There is no doubt that bullet/ballistic technological improvements has pushed the 9mm platform to the top of the pyramid. It’s where I started more than 30 years ago on my own personal self-defense handgun journey. Over that time, I went to 40s&w, 45acp, 357sig, and back to 9mm. Another thing not discussed in the video is the advancements in marksmanship and training.

Back in the early 1990s, as many departments were still transitioning from revolvers to high capacity autos it was not uncommon to hear about police shootings where multiple officers unloaded a plethora of rounds with very few hits on target. I heard routinely, the DA shot is a throw away shot and transitioning from DA to SA is why the range ceiling has so many holes. I took several classes and competed in IDPA matches while slapping the snot out of whatever trigger system I had in my hands. It wasn’t until I was taught how to prep and control a trigger that I truly started to understand how to shoot consistently accurate at speed. At the time I had been concealed carrying an HK P2000 and P2000SK chambered to 357sig and had a 9mm version of both for practice and training due to the cost of 357sig ammo. After attending a class with the 9mm, I decided to test both P2000s against each other on a timer. After several months of shooting each side by side it was quite apparent that I was significantly faster and more accurate with the 9mm. I decided that 9mm gave me the best chance at making “good hits” at speed, particularly under stress.

So IMO, while the 9mm technology moved forward the platform also gained in strength and relevancy from advancements in training fundamentals. From gripping a gun, to properly running a trigger, and to being more target focused have all contributed to the great success of the 9mm.

quote:

Originally posted by GOTSIG:
It’s clear the FBI has better research than before

Sarcasm alert- or perhaps they just got a dose of reality.

The push back against the 9mm came from the Miami shoot out with Platt and Matix. After the agents were murdered the Feeb proclaimed that lack of handgun performance got them killed.

A larger caliber handgun would have by their claims-

-made them wear body armor appropriate to the threat that day.
-take rifles that were readily available to them that day.
-use the field offices SWAT team which was available to them that day.
-make Gordon McNeill a good leader.
And a host of other things that went wrong due to poor officer safety and leadership choices.

But, the bureau cried that if they only had more powerful handguns they would have been victorious.

The FBI has always had good research and evaluations. They just often asked the wrong questions.

At the Miami Shootout, the two perps had a Mini-14, a pump shotgun and a couple of .357 revolvers, while the officers onsite had two pump shotguns, three S&W 9mm pistols, and three .38 revolvers. Seems 9mm played a small role in the shootout.

I’ll say this right up front, I’m a 40 S&W fan. Not a fanboi, but a fan for several reasons. It was a good video, and the FBI guy clearly knows what he’s talking about.

However, what I heard was 9mm was their choice for everything other than “it’s the most effective pistol caliber”. What I heard was cost was a factor, and that 9mm met the needs of the lowest common denominator. Meaning agents will have an easier time being proficient with 9mm.

As a career LEO and firearms instructor for my agency (now retired), I can tell you a couple things many of you probably already know. Most cops, and even more FBI agents I would suspect, are not gun people, so training and achieving proficiency can be challenging. Secondly, and I don’t care what anyone says, standards have been lowered. From a liability standpoint, administrators need their cops/agents to be proficient, at least on paper anyway.

What I fear is a narrative is being crafted the only caliber WE NEED is 9mm, and there are obvious reasons the industry would favor this, higher profits. May be it’s my inherent oppositional defiance disorder, but I tend to bristle and question when I see content like this.

Just my $.02.

quote:

Originally posted by oddball:
Seems 9mm played a small role in the shootout.

The 9mm Winchester Silvertip which failed to immediately incapacitate Platt is cited as a critical failure.

quote:

Originally posted by tcop143:
I’ll say this right up front, I’m a 40 S&W fan. Not a fanboi, but a fan for several reasons. It was a good video, and the FBI guy clearly knows what he’s talking about.

However, what I heard was 9mm was their choice for everything other than “it’s the most effective pistol caliber”. What I heard was cost was a factor, and that 9mm met the needs of the lowest common denominator. Meaning agents will have an easier time being proficient with 9mm.

As a career LEO and firearms instructor for my agency (now retired), I can tell you a couple things many of you probably already know. Most cops, and even more FBI agents I would suspect, are not gun people, so training and achieving proficiency can be challenging. Secondly, and I don’t care what anyone says, standards have been lowered. From a liability standpoint, administrators need their cops/agents to be proficient, at least on paper anyway.

What I fear is a narrative is being crafted the only caliber WE NEED is 9mm, and there are obvious reasons the industry would favor this, higher profits. May be it’s my inherent oppositional defiance disorder, but I tend to bristle and question when I see content like this.

Just my $.02.

If I follow your logic correctly, the USSS has specifically handicapped the Presidential security detail for the benefit of getting counterfeit currency desk jockeys to be able to qualify, with their duty weapon?

Considering the quality of USSS we have seen in the past year...does that surprise you?

Choosing a high velocity 9mm with an effective bullet as the optimum choice for a large law enforcement agency does not mean other calibers are poor choices.

I thought it was interesting that they used people who have never fired a pistol before as providing some evidence that 9mm was better for the agency. How is this helpful for the agency?

In a real performance training process, the shooter begins with a .22 rimfire and progresses to a 338 Lapua. Of course if you bring non-shooters to the line with a 460 Weatherby Magnum and see if they can shoot it better than the .22 rimfire, what do you expect?

I cannot dispute or criticize the FBI decision to standardize on the 9mm. So many criteria, so many dimensions to the problem. I only hope we recognize that the decision was for this agency, and not to finally answer the question "what is the best caliber?"

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
Choosing a high velocity 9mm with an effective bullet as the optimum choice for a large law enforcement agency does not mean other calibers are poor choices.

I thought it was interesting that they used people who have never fired a pistol before as providing some evidence that 9mm was better for the agency. How is this helpful for the agency?

In a real performance training process, the shooter begins with a .22 rimfire and progresses to a 338 Lapua. Of course if you bring non-shooters to the line with a 460 Weatherby Magnum and see if they can shoot it better than the .22 rimfire, what do you expect?

I cannot dispute or criticize the FBI decision to standardize on the 9mm. So many criteria, so many dimensions to the problem. I only hope we recognize that the decision was for this agency, and not to finally answer the question "what is the best caliber?"

100% agree. Any instructor worth their salt, given the limitations in personnel, budget, and training time, would want, and argue have to have, a caliber their worst shooters are confident and proficient with. Hits with 9mm are way better than misses with 40, 357 Sig, 45acp, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
I only hope we recognize that the decision was for this agency, and not to finally answer the question "what is the best caliber?"

Yeah, I think the FBI guy did a good job of explaining why it was the right choice for them. The "settles the debate" garbage is just TFBTV clickbait titles.

Did the 9mm Silvertip fail? It did. But versions of the narrative claim the Agents trailing the robbers saw them break out a Mini 14 prior to the crash and shooting. They opted to force an engagement with known killers armed with a superior weapon. It has always amazed me that they choose to crash into the bad guys as opposed to calling the local cops for help. It was not just a ballistic failure, it was a tactical failure.

FBI: DEI HR FIN ...

Q.E.D.





Give you an example. We brought a bunch of people out to the old
21:33
range at Quantico and we had a bullseye target up and we had people stand just I think it was five yards away at the time. We brought office personnel,
21:40
secretaries, folks that have never held a gun before all the way up through we brought hostage rescue team, professional shooters for us in they had
21:47
to shoot a 40 and a nine on a very controlled course very quickly. At the end of all of those assessments, six out
21:54
of 10 shooters were faster in their shot strengths and significantly more accurate by just shooting the 9
22:00
millimeter pistol over the 40.

_________________________________________

is one of the gentlemen in the back was the head of finance at the time. and he he said, "Hey, I think this young man's
29:41
failed miserably in his presentation um because he has not talked for a minute
29:46
about what this is going to do costwise at the FBI." And the gentleman leading it looks me
29:52
and says, "Yeah, I don't think you've talked about that at all." And I said, "I haven't because I don't think saving the life on FBI agent has anything to do
29:58
with dollars and cents." And he guy in the back said, "Don't disagree. However, I have to pay for it. Scott, what's it
30:06
going to cost me?" I said, 'It'll save you roughly $500,000 just at the FBI
30:11
academy and training costs a year. The guy in the back goes, "This is a hell of a good idea. We got to go." So, that was the one day we all came back and said,
30:17
"Hey, I think we finally did it right. We had all the research that we were going to be better in our gunfights and increase survivability." And then some
30:24
of the other folks were filled [sic] to death. We're going to save a bunch of money.

Interesting video. But Dude won’t say what everyone knows. Small weaker agents don’t shoot as well and as fast as physically larger agents. When was cost ever an issue for the feds. ?

Just say we are like every other public institution we have to cater to the lowest common denominator of our people.

To say 40/45 is murdered is a bit much.

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
Interesting video. But Dude won’t say what everyone knows. Small weaker agents don’t shoot as well and as fast as physically larger agents. When was cost ever an issue for the feds. ?

Just say we are like every other public institution we have to cater to the lowest common denominator of our people.

To say 40/45 is murdered is a bit much.

Yes and no.

Yes, the 9mm is easier for a poor shooter to shoot. But those advantages apply to an experienced shooter as well.

A few years ago I was carrying a P220 compact in .45 off-duty. I'd qualify 99-100% with that gun every time, more than satisfying the 80% metric that admin cares about. About two years ago I switched to a P229 in 9mm. Still shoot the same score, but I can do it even faster under the par time than I could with the .45, I get more rounds on tap, and it's cheaper to practice so I can shoot more.

Both are competent, viable choices but the 9mm offers functional and logical advantages over the .45.