If we are going with averages, then 13 or 10 rounds of 40/45 vs 17 9mm doesn’t really matter if the ‘average’ shooting event is like 3 rounds or some small single digit event. I will also point out that on average, there is statistically very little difference between 9/40/45 in a premium modern bullet HST, Ranger, gold dot, etc.

Does make for fun mental masturbation for people not supplying hundreds or even thousands of agents. Luckily I have to only supply 1 person with a Ccw, me. My son shoots very well but isn’t old enough to ccw and my wife could care less but is at least proficient with a revolver. She lacks the arm strength to manually cycle any semi auto slide I have ever given her to try. So we don’t.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

Yes, the 9mm is easier for a poor shooter to shoot. But those advantages apply to an experienced shooter as well.

This is a pretty key point to the “cause they don’t make a .46” crowd. Consistently I can run a bill drill on a blue bird day in perfect conditions and get a fist sized group. In two seconds. Consistently. Same conditions with a 1076 takes longer. As with a 220. As with a k frame shooting magnums. Can you get close? Yeah but it takes more work to get the same level of performance.

Now, make it raining, cold and hour 14 of a 16 hour shift. Oh, and it’s dusk. Do I want as a high level shooter to have to problem solve with a harder or easier platform?

People love to go on about this being about lower skilled shooters. Or make it about money. But, it is solely their justification. If I could go back to the days I had an unlimited supply of 10mm, I wouldn’t.

The Federal Air Marshals have also moved to 9mm from their legendary .357 Sig pistols (Sig 229 to Glock 19). I do think cost was a major factor, both for the guns as well as the ammo. And also to a smaller degree easier qualifying with the less punchy round. But those guys and gals are the premier shooters of federal LE and if they don’t have any beef with carrying 9mm then I don’t either.

But it's not just the FBI, its pretty much all of the major, and medium, and most small law enforcement agencies, as well as tier 1 units that have gone to 9mm. Qualification scores have gone up, it's a cheaper round to produce, and the tech has improved its performance so much, as to make the mission of .40 S&W non sequitur.

I see all of these threads, not just this one, and IF we're being really super duper honest with ourselves most of the people bothered by this are really just unhappy that their nostalgic round of choice is being steadily moved to the sidelines. Instead of honestly admitting that, "argument" for 9mm ascendency devolves to lowered testosterone in American shooters, and an absolute disbelief that your average American gun owner doesn't hold a graduate degree in firearms ballistics.

Th FBI choosing 9mm is not exactly a revelation. If memory serves me correctly the HRT for the longest time were using tricked out Browning Hi-Powers in 9mm,(at least back in the 80's and 90's), and Sig Sauer P226's in 9mm became authorized, when the experiment in issuing full size 10mm 1006's didn't work out as well, and LOL started the process of downloading 10mm, to more manageable size guns, and cartridges.

Personally I started out on Colt Government Models, and Sig P220's throughout the late 80's, into the late 90's. I transitioned to .40 in '99, and finally 9mm in 2011. I shot them all WELL. Hindsight being 20/20, younger self in the late 80's would have just bought and trained with 9mm's, very likely Sig, a P226, a couple of P228's and a P225 for the basics, with a Hi-Power or two thrown into the mix, and called it a day.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sig Sauer: For Hire,

quote:

Originally posted by Sig Sauer: For Hire:


Th FBI choosing 9mm is not exactly a revelation. If memory serves me correctly the HRT for the longest time were using tricked out Browning Hi-Powers in 9mm,(at least back in the 80's and 90's), and Sig Sauer P226's in 9mm became authorized, when the experiment in issuing full size 10mm 1006's didn't work out as well, and LOL started the process of downloading 10mm, to more manageable size guns, and cartridges.

Sorta.

HRT had the choice for many years between a tricked out Novak BHP or a tricked out 1911. P226s were mainly issued to the field office SWAT teams. As GWOT spooled up and HRT started deploying in support of the efforts, they started running into problems keeping the guns running in the desert environment. Around the time that the FBI were getting Glock’s in .40, HRT started taking them to the desert with much better results. I’ve heard two different people claim that CAG and HRT shared a compound, and these joint missions are what led CAG to adopt the Glock in .40. Eventually like everyone else both went to Glocks in 9mm.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig Sauer: For Hire:


Th FBI choosing 9mm is not exactly a revelation. If memory serves me correctly the HRT for the longest time were using tricked out Browning Hi-Powers in 9mm,(at least back in the 80's and 90's), and Sig Sauer P226's in 9mm became authorized, when the experiment in issuing full size 10mm 1006's didn't work out as well, and LOL started the process of downloading 10mm, to more manageable size guns, and cartridges.

Sorta.

HRT had the choice for many years between a tricked out Novak BHP or a tricked out 1911. P226s were mainly issued to the field office SWAT teams. As GWOT spooled up and HRT started deploying in support of the efforts, they started running into problems keeping the guns running in the desert environment. Around the time that the FBI were getting Glock’s in .40, HRT started taking them to the desert with much better results. I’ve heard two different people claim that CAG and HRT shared a compound, and these joint missions are what led CAG to adopt the Glock in .40. Eventually like everyone else both went to Glocks in 9mm.

Thanks for that clarification. I thought that the P226 was an authorized interim issue handgun for agents across the board, and not just limited to field office SWAT teams. Thanks again.

The P226 was general issue to FBI agents, at least at one point. I went to the FBI National Academy (Session 166) in the summer of 1991. The class of new FBI agent trainees there at that time all had new P226s.

If you're not carrying (in 2026) a Glock with an RDS and 9MM 147GR JHP's, you're on the wrong side of history.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
If you're not carrying (in 2026) a Glock with an RDS and 9MM 147GR JHP's, you're on the wrong side of history.

My take from the video, Reeves reignited the caliber war, the Feeb admits it was to arm the lowest common denominator and save a dollar. I’m good with that.

But I’ll gladly sit here and read the various arguments as too, BUT I do hope despite the video that it doesn’t stop others from going out and trying other calibers or weapons. Those who say it’s a “9mm/5.56 kinda world” are just limiting themselves to either trying other things or just wanna be part of the clique.

Dale

quote:

Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Those who say it’s a “9mm/5.56 kinda world” are just limiting themselves to either trying other things or just wanna be part of the clique.

Dale

So what am I limiting myself to, Dale? I do admit I like to read how somehow I am hamstrung by being really good with a 9mm pistol or 5.56 rifle. Does this clique membership have any privileges? Maybe a 10 percent discount at Chik Fil A? Or 20 percent at the boot barn every other Wednesday?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Badkarma 1:
Those who say it’s a “9mm/5.56 kinda world” are just limiting themselves to either trying other things or just wanna be part of the clique.

Dale

So what am I limiting myself to, Dale? I do admit I like to read how somehow I am hamstrung by being really good with a 9mm pistol or 5.56 rifle. Does this clique membership have any privileges? Maybe a 10 percent discount at Chik Fil A? Or 20 percent at the boot barn every other Wednesday?

Gee I dunno maybe a bigger world, better perspective of what’s going on elsewhere, or being more open minded?
You tell me?

And just to add, the Bureau’s current load is the Hornady Critical Duty 135+P. So tell me again how recoil is a mitigating factor?
Dale

Dale, you guys crack me up.

I’ve never seen the problem with arming a large group of varied skill folks with the easiest to shoot, yet still effective round. It makes end user sense, it makes financial sense, it just generally makes sense.

I am a “gun guy” I like .40, .45, etc. etc etc. They are all effective, if you do your part. They are all also handgun calibers and also equally infective and we’ve seen it time and time again with all handgun calibers. Hell there have been infective hits with BIG rifle calibers. I have no illusions about any magic bullet.

I am a “fairly competent” shooter and I have plenty of experience shooting larger calibers, and as I have said like them but I can’t deny that in “MOST” cases it’s easier to shoot 9mm. There are some outliers I think the P229 and HK USP/USPc and derivatives all shoot pretty much the same for me 9 or .40 but that is due more to how good the platforms are.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Dale, you guys crack me up.

Well, at least I’m not boring.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Badkarma 1,

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Does this clique membership have any privileges? Maybe a 10 percent discount at Chik Fil A? Or 20 percent at the boot barn every other Wednesday?

If it gets me a Chick-Fil-A Spicy Chicken Sammich on Sunday, I'd actually think about selling my shotguns.

Then you have shitty shotguns. lol. I would never even consider the idea of selling my 1301’s. It’s a viable tool in every toolbox.

If we are clique-ing up then put me in the 22\9mm/5.56\12 gauge clique. Everything I do or might do I can make do with these. (I do own 308’s but that is the least useful to me of these overall) and yes I would love free sammitches.

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Does this clique membership have any privileges? Maybe a 10 percent discount at Chik Fil A? Or 20 percent at the boot barn every other Wednesday?

If it gets me a Chick-Fil-A Spicy Chicken Sammich on Sunday, I'd actually think about selling my shotguns.

LOL

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Then you have shitty shotguns. lol. I would never even consider the idea of selling my 1301’s. It’s a viable tool in every toolbox.

1301? Sunday Spicy Chicken Sammich?
1301? Sunday Spicy Chicken Sammich?
1301? Sunday Spicy Chicken Sammich?

I do love my 1301! It's one hell of a shotgun, but when do you really WANT a Spicy Chicken Sammich?

Yep, Sunday afternoon. But no-can-do Buc-a-roo... Chik-Fil-A is closed on Sundays.

(At least I know where I'm going for lunch TODAY!

You got me there. I do loves me a chicken sandwich. Lol And on a Sunday, total guilty pleasure.