quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
However, I'm also a bit concerned with how a person practices his "quick draw" while in his underwear. Where does he draw it FROM?

Naturally, you strap the cowboy gun belt on over the tighty whiteys.

quote:

Originally posted by divil:
I don’t like the P320 and would never trust it. I think the military adopting a derivative of it was a mistake.

The military feels otherwise. In fact, they just recently released a statement supporting the M17/M18 MHS as "safe and reliable" and refuting "public speculation and online misinformation", noting specifically:

quote:

To date, all investigated incidents of alleged "uncommanded discharges" have been traced back to the trigger being pulled, and not due to an issue with the firearm. Investigators have been unable to induce a discharge without disengaging the manual safety and pulling the trigger.

You can read the entire statement here, which also goes into detail on their investigative process:
https://cpeground.army.mil/New...s-safe-and-reliable/

Thanks for the link. I read it. I knew the Military would maintain the M17/M18 weapon system. I can understand that regarding the Military ND incidents in question involved stupid and or careless trigger pulling when there should have been none.

I think the DA/SA system is better for Military use, the heavier DA pull is not a nothing-burger when it comes to ND idiot resistance. I also think a properly maintained M9 is more reliable with M882 ammo than an M17/M18 with M1152 ammo.

That said, I am also aware the Military gives not one rats ass about me or my thoughts on the subject .

The military M17/M18 units have a manual safety.

Most 320's in the civilian markets do not have a manual safety. The same with the Law Enforcement sector.

I would expect ND's/AD's to be significantly lower with M17/M18 military models vs. standard 320's.

A manual safety (properly engaged) will of course help prevent careless handling discharges, or something like one “It just went off” incident in which the gun was carried and left loose in a woman’s purse. A properly engaged manual safety would also prevent the many unintentional discharges with other guns when someone pulls the trigger without intending to, such as in this incident:





It is possible to have P320 pistols equipped with manual safeties if desired, but they are not necessary if the guns are handled properly—like any other firearm.

No one claims that a P320 won’t fire if the trigger is pulled. What is commonly claimed is that they just “go off” by themselves without doing that, such as what was claimed in the fatal Air Force incident. If a safety simply blocks trigger movement, then there would be no reason why M17 and M18 pistols didn’t just fire by themselves without trigger movement if that were possible.

You do you. I have at least 7 320's in various configurations and will continue to have and use them. My wife just gave me back her 320C in favor of a 365. She had concerns about the weight.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
However, I'm also a bit concerned with how a person practices his "quick draw" while in his underwear. Where does he draw it FROM?

Naturally, you strap the cowboy gun belt on over the tighty whiteys.

Yup, I figured that was obvious and didn’t need to be mentioned.

I’m told it was hand tooled leather belt and holster. I don’t think he won the buckle in the rodeo though…

quote:

Originally posted by cee_Kamp:


Anyone that wants to own and shoot that style/type of striker fired handguns is fine by me, knock yourself out and buy them all up, just don't shoot me when you have your AD/ND.
Nobody ever plans to have an AD/ND, and nobody ever plans to have a momentary lapse in their gun handling safety skills. But it still happens occasionally.

OMG. That is terrifying!

A gun that would go off when you defeat the safety mechanisms AND pull the trigger?

Crazy.

Reminds me of groups that make claims that you’re xxxxx more likely to kill a family member with a gun in the home.

FWIW, my cat has never even sniffed my pistol on the nightstand. He walks right past it like it isn't even there.

And his snacks are in a cabinet he cannot open.*


*(small twist knob latch. Not sure if that has anything to do with it, but I am not about to tempt the cosmic jester...)

If you can’t trust yourself to not put your finger on the trigger, then how can you trust yourself to engage a manual safety?

The difference between my P320 and DA/SA P229 is how much trigger pressure to light off the first round. That and the P229 has a hammer which I ride with my thumb as I slowly holster it.

So really if I am going to be stupid and pull the trigger, either pistol is going to fire.

One time I was holstering the P229 while riding the hammer when my shirt tail had gotten into the holster and snagged the trigger. I felt the hammer start to move and thus stopped holstering.

So I am doubly extra cautious when holstering the P320. Also, I have a dingus equipped trigger for the P320 to help mitigate that kind of error.

quote:

Originally posted by r0gue:

quote:

Originally posted by cee_Kamp:
And I am still not going to buy, or own any SIG P320, SIG P365, or any Glock. There, I said it. (those without a manual safety)
Why? At least for me and MY point of view, The P320, P365, and Glocks, is just like holster carrying a 1911 fully loaded, hot chamber, manual safety OFF, and grip safety pinned down. (deactivated)
For me, that's a HARD NO.

Admittedly, I made a sharp pivot from striker during the 320 fur-ball for the same reasons. In fact, when I came to the decision, I was bewildered at why I hadn't always felt this way.

Unless I find myself back with the P7, the striker is in the rear view mirror for me. I do NOT believe there is a design flaw in the P320. But I do feel the striker design (as described above) is a compromise I need not make. Striker pistols are not unsafe, but I see them as less forgiving of manual handling and inputs in the heat of the moment.

I moved back to the classic P226/P228 and a P938 for more concealed needs.

Good choice all, but I've been carrying mostly Sig P365s and Glocks since I retired for LE. I carried 1911 type .45 ACPs shortly after I started my career in the mid-1970's and during the last 18 months before retiring in 2008 (A Commander length Nighthawk Custom GRP II). I remember so many ignorant comments about carrying "Condition One" ("Cocked and Locked"), by those that had little or no experience with handguns and having to educate them about basic safety practices. That said, the officers I saw that handled their primary duty weapons carelessly, did so with DA/SA, DAO hammer fired, DAO striker fired pistol, and even revolvers. IMHO, these issues all evolved from minimal training and little or no attention paid to keeping proficient with whatever they carried and not necessarily the "hardware" on their hip.

It sounds as though you might be interested in getting yourself a P7 and I hope you do! When Cabellas first imported all those retired PD duty P7s from Germany, I jumped on them big time! Why not pick up several at the asking price of only $500.00??? I've get three and only sold one to a judge friend of mine. Besides the heating up issue (when you fire a lot of rounds in a relatively short period of time), they're a great system for a single column magazine CCW!!!

quote:

posted by cee_Kamp:
Anyone that wants to own and shoot that style/type of striker fired handguns is fine by me, knock yourself out and buy them all up, just don't shoot me when you have your AD/ND.

quote:

posted by divil:
Carry it all you want. Appendix even. I will not be joining you.

Whatever. I care just enough about your personal choices to post about how I don't care about your personal choices. This has nothing to do with this thread or the subject of it, the lawsuits over the gun firing by itself without the trigger being touched, not inadvertently pulling the trigger. Different issues.

(edited to add quote attribution)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: egregore,

Only the bottom quote is mine. If you were truly uncaring in my choices then I think a reply similar to what Fredward posted would be where you are at…

I won’t be holding my breath waiting for Ben Stoeger and the other drama queens on YouTube to issue detailed update videos retracting all their earlier rumor mongering.

It’s sad, there are several amazing shooters I used to enjoy technique videos, but I just lost respect when they started pushing gossipy nonsense.

I don't own a P320 but I never worried about any of my Glocks being striker fired. I was interested in the whole 320 debacle just from a curiosity standpoint, I had no dog in the fight so I watched from the wings.

I would never carry any pistol in the appendix position. I don't find it comfortable in the slightest and pointing a loaded handgun at my junk is at the bottom of my to-do list. No judgement towards those who choose to carry that way.

I guess we can all agree that we disagree.

My belief that striker fired handguns without a dingus on the trigger and without a manual safety are somewhat less tolerant of gun handling errors, entrapped clothing in the holster mouth, coat drawstrings.
Then there is low quality holster flexing activating the trigger, and possibly holsters being used that are for an incorrect model of handgun.
That's my belief and I will continue owning, carrying, and shooting handguns which I believe to be slightly more tolerant of the issues/mistakes mentioned above.

Those of you that think striker fired handguns without a dingus on the trigger and/or without a manual safety are as safe as everything else on the market, that's your belief.
You won't see me telling you that you are doing something wrong, or that you have made an error in your firearms choice. That's your choice.

You do you, and I will do me. Your choices for you and my choices for me!

@ pulicords,
I owned a HK P7M8 previously, and eventually traded it away. Simply due to the squeeze cocker being so radically different from every other handgun in my inventory.
I do believe that HK design is well thought out and inherently safe, but it's so unlike everything else on the market, for being proficient, you might have to give up everything else just for muscle memory.
It would have been OK for keeping it as a range toy or collectable. My concern was that in an adrenaline fueled self defense situation, I would forget to squeeze the squeeze cocker.
I own so many other types/styles of handguns without squeeze cockers and shoot most of them regularly, and forgetting to squeeze the squeeze cocker could have fatal results out on the street.
There again, my belief, my choice for what to own, carry, and shoot. I do not miss the P7M8.

quote:

Originally posted by cee_Kamp:
You won't see me telling you that you are doing something wrong, or that you have made an error in your firearms choice. That's your choice.

You have a weird way of showing it. “Dont shoot me”? Really?

quote:

Anyone that wants to own and shoot that style/type of striker fired handguns is fine by me, knock yourself out and buy them all up, just don't shoot me when you have your AD/ND

^^^ I too could have done without that over-the-top hyperbole. "When you have your AD/ND"??

quote:

Originally posted by divil:
Only the bottom quote is mine. If you were truly uncaring in my choices then I think a reply similar to what Fredward posted would be where you are at…

It was aimed at both of you. And I still don't care.