quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
What is the ratio of current sales of SIG pistols between the classic DA/SA line and the P320?

That I do not know. I do know that SIG very smartly placed a heavy emphasis on keeping the marketing up on the P-Series stuff. All the equipment was paid for long ago, and the profit on selling P-Series guns is really high. So, sales of DA/SA guns are a priority to them. I also know that they have sold a metric assload of Legions. Despite the corny marketing, the coins, etc, it is a great out of the box gun.

Rumor has it that more great P-Series options may be coming down the road. We shall see.

I have actually moved back towards DA/SA. I think striker fired guns do have a great many advantages in packaging, cost, training etc.

I have moved back the other way because I am a low speed high drag young fellow and realize that almost all of my firearm use will be administrative handling in nature and I believe that heavier first shot is a benefit/extra layer of safety here. I also do not feel it is an impediment and may actually be a benefit in a high stress/adrenaline situation.

The reality is they are all guns and barring the legitimately poor products they are all good firearms that one simply has to be aware and train to their pros and cons. With a DA/SA I could argue that they are safer to holster then a "Glock" but the reality is that is only if you train to decock. Leave it in single action and it's probably more dangerous. I personally just like being able to feel/ride the hammer on holster.

I love how many guns/ammo/etc. are all "Going away, Disappearing!!!" I would put significant money on the table that if you could look in the night stands and cars and hosters of America you would find a fair number of folks who trust their lives to a Colt SAA or a Luger bring back, or a little Sauer .32 pocket pistol that grandad had etc. etc. I mean Christ there are people who use Kel Tecs for God sakes!!!

Are striker fired pistols the way of the now/future for large organizations and new shooters....yep. Are DA/SA firearms suddenly rendered completely unsuitable? Of course not. But then again I am one of those weirdos who shoots his revolvers double action 99% of the time and rarely cocks the hammer for a single action shot so I ain't scared of no double action.

That being said I think I did read somewhere that......."You will buy a Glock".

My son is 15 and does USPSA/IDPA with me. What gun does he use right now... I make him use my DA/SA slightly enhanced by Sig folded slide P226 9mm. Guess what? He shoots it well and gets better every time he shoots it. He is going to try a VP9 in the future but, I wanted him to learn trigger control, de-cocking, and other things before going to a striker fired gun. I believe, and I may totally off here, that if you can master a DA/SA it makes life easier.

When I got my AAS degree in Police Science Technology we had two semesters of firearms. First semester was nothing but DA/SA revolver, S&W Model 10s to be exact. No speed loaders. Individual loops on the belt for reloads. I believe, as did our instructors, that it helped with sights, trigger, and dexterity. Second semester was Beretta 92 DA/SA. They, to this day, still use Model 10s for first semester. Now the second semester is M&P 9mm or G17s. The way of the LE world I guess....

If it matters... I use a DA/SA HK USP Expert 9mm for the action shooting I do now. If I do my part I have no problems running and gunning with it.

Is the DA/SA dead? No. Are striker fired guns more prevelant? Absolutely. Whatever you feel comfortable with... go for it. I just think striker fires are popular because they are cheaper and "easier".

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
DA/SA is the manual transmission of the gun world. It's more complicated to learn, with some benefits to doing so. But the majority of buyers just can't be bothered.

Of course, look at sales of manual vs automatic transmission cars. The sales of DA/SA vs striker guns are probably approaching the same ratio.

One little statistic I'd love to know, and there may be one or two people on this board who may know the answer. What is the ratio of current sales of SIG pistols between the classic DA/SA line and the P320?

Don't know what it's like for the rest of the retailers; for us we sell every single 320 we can get our grubby hands on. From the factory the 9mm and 45AUTO versions move out quickly. Even 40S&W and 357SIG chamberings sell, though not nearly at the pace that the other two calibers do. Meanwhile for us the classic P-series guns as a whole don't move anywhere close to that fast. The only DA/SA guns that sell with any kind of volume are the Legions; those in 9mm have remained popular, while the 40S&W P226 Legion in our case hardly gets looked over at all. We could certainly use more of the 9mm guns but SIG's speed in delivery to 'the little guys' isn't exactly just-in-time type of efficiency.

With those shoppers that can't actually afford a Legion at the moment, from my side of the counter I can usually sense the gears churning in their heads as they're planning out their finance strategy. There seems to be a sizable group of gun buyers that are drawn to the Legion. The P220 version is new so it for now is attracting interest but I suspect that it will slow down like all the rest of the 45AUTO world; 45ACP traffic in general continues to be sluggish due to buyers' ever present eye on the cost of feeding those guns.

Meanwhile the 320 sells to buyers of all kinds, even those who wouldn't normally look at a classic P-SIG or any other hammer gun. There definitely is financial strength and viability in strikers these days.

How many of those buyers are first or second time buyers? I ask because I am not a "weapon" buyer at this point. I am a gun guy. I like to shoot and own and learn a variety. They are as much a hobby as cars. So I, and I suspect a fair number of forum folks, fall into that hobby/enthusiast group.

I I was going to buy my first gun or two strictly for HD/Carry/Defense a "Glock" or two would be just the ticket (insert P320/M&P/etc. etc.). They are cheap, reliable, available and have lots of product support. I however have crossed the I want a defensive weapon bridge many, many miles back. . Hell I have done turned off the main road to go antiquing at this point.

Man, this makes me want to bring out my Walther P99s for a trip to the range.

Let's see now, they are polymer framed, striker fired, DA/SA with a kinda light DA and light SA trigger. They have a decocker too. While this pistol presents another set of training issues because of its uniqueness, the difference between DA/SA trigger pulls is less than with most all DA/SA guns.

There's some great info on the internet and at the gun counters for new shooters. Things like, da/sa triggers are as irrelevant as the flintlock, da/sa requires the strength of a gorilla, the first shot will end up in the next town and thousands of hours and rounds are required to "master" the pull. And of course, you're self defense gun needs a consistent, light, crisp pull, preferably 4lbs and under for your long distance 4 yard shooting session.

I think there are more models and variants of models of pistols than ever before... and even three new revolvers in the past couple of years (Ruger LCR, Kimber K6, and Colt Cobra)... not to mention a lot of interest in single-stack pistols... but full size and compact striker-fired plastic guns dominate. Why? They fit the needs of many gun owners, from first-time buyers to old hands. And they are less expensive than the alternatives.

I don't see it as an "either/or" at this point. Firepower was a major factor in semi-autos driving revolvers out of the police market, and plastic guns sure took a bite out of metal guns, just like .40 came along and pushed 9mm down in popularity; but each of these trends took years to unfold and each has been countered by a pendulum swing backwards (except for police guns; 15 shot semis are here to stay in police holsters).

But today, manufacturing, marketing, and market size/diversity have opened up lots of niches for many variations of handguns -- and revolvers are enjoying a resurgence, as are DA/SA pistols. Technology brought the 9mm back. I think the broad audience -- us -- is open to change and innovation and is always a little restless. There is no single solution for each and everyone, and that's okay (P.S. - I like DA/SA Sigs, revolvers, and wood grips -- but own a couple of striker-fired pistols, too).

I think striker fired are where we're at right now. DA/SA once dominant, is now, while still around, on the downswing. The military just started the move to striker. Striker seems pretty dominant in LE. What's happening in the competition world?

I will say, as always, price is a factor. Poly striker makes for a cheaper gun that does work.

quote:

Originally posted by bb405:
Probably not qualified to say, but in the near future I believe striker fired pistols are where we are going. That having been said, recent observations at the range indicate a renewed interest in revolvers. Youngsters shooting wheel guns and carrying on reminded of my children and their belief they invented bell bottoms and platform shoes. If that analogy does not strike a resonate chord, I beg your indulgence.

quote:

How many of those buyers are first or second time buyers? I ask because I am not a "weapon" buyer at this point. I am a gun guy. I like to shoot and own and learn a variety. They are as much a hobby as cars. So I, and I suspect a fair number of forum folks, fall into that hobby/enthusiast group.

If you were referring to our shop's 320 sales (apologies if you weren't), I'd say that somewhere around 80-90% of our 320 sales have been to buyers who own multiple handguns. The last 45AUTO 320 I sold a couple of days ago (Carry) went to a gent who owns a couple of classic P-SIGs and was eyeballing the P220 Legion as well. I recall him saying that he also owns several Glocks and has owned one or two other striker brands as well. His reason for this purchase: to see what the 320 was all about.

You can thank the Pentagon for that fellow's underlying motive. 320s sold "okay" prior to the military selection of SIG, but has been on the increase ever since. We still sell more G19s than 320Cs, but to be honest that's only because we can't get the 320 fast enough from SIG.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
What is the ratio of current sales of SIG pistols between the classic DA/SA line and the P320?

That I do not know. I do know that SIG very smartly placed a heavy emphasis on keeping the marketing up on the P-Series stuff. All the equipment was paid for long ago, and the profit on selling P-Series guns is really high. So, sales of DA/SA guns are a priority to them. I also know that they have sold a metric assload of Legions. Despite the corny marketing, the coins, etc, it is a great out of the box gun.

Rumor has it that more great P-Series options may be coming down the road. We shall see.

I wonder if a 239 Legion is in the works. I love my 239 but would buy a Legion in a heartbeat.

I don't have a P239, but if I did, I'd just send it to Robert Burke, rather than waiting for a Legion version. I think a Burke P239 would be better than a Legion P239.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
What is the ratio of current sales of SIG pistols between the classic DA/SA line and the P320?

That I do not know. I do know that SIG very smartly placed a heavy emphasis on keeping the marketing up on the P-Series stuff. All the equipment was paid for long ago, and the profit on selling P-Series guns is really high. So, sales of DA/SA guns are a priority to them. I also know that they have sold a metric assload of Legions. Despite the corny marketing, the coins, etc, it is a great out of the box gun.

Rumor has it that more great P-Series options may be coming down the road. We shall see.

I wonder if a 239 Legion is in the works. I love my 239 but would buy a Legion in a heartbeat.

I suspect that there will be. There are also some other really cool ideas being floated around the factory.

quote:

I wonder if a 239 Legion is in the works. I love my 239 but would buy a Legion in a heartbeat.

I also would buy a P239 Legion. Note that about a month ago there was mentioned that Sig would fairly soon stop producing the P239. If that is true, a 239 Legion would be unlikely.

quote:

The DA shot is no harder to learn, takes no more training time than any other trigger system, doesn't require learning a transition

This bears repeating.

I too had a long winded response, but anyone who has ever taken Practical Fundamentals will attest to this as well. (Coming from someone who, as a student, shot his first PF class with a 226R - yet EDC'd a M&P.)

A P239 Legion? Shhhh, don't ever let my wife hear those words. If Sig produced one and my wife found out about it she would leave scorch marks on the card's magnetic strip.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Yeah.......no.

The DA/SA is far from done. Looking at the numbers of SIG Legions that I know have been sold, I know the DA/SA is alive and kicking.

Is the DA/SA dead in LE? Yep, sure is. Is it dead because the striker guns are better? Yep, they are better. They are better at pacifying administrators with a bunch of retards that do not want to go to the range. If you are going to suck, you will suck less with a striker fired gun. The length of pull is less so it gives the retard less time to fuck up the shot when they stare at the target, snatch the trigger to the rear, all the while pushing the gun downward, and then blaming the low left hit on their sights being off.

Couple that with a generation of firearms instructors that know nothing about how to teach a DA/SA gun (or revolvers for that matter) and it is a perfect storm.

All of that is fine by me. There are only a couple of places you can go to learn how to effectively run a DA/SA pistol and I am one of them.

The arguments against the DA/SA always boil down to "I can't do it, so it can't be done".

Edited to fix a screw up!

Jerry, I enjoyed your course, got a lot out of it, would do it again, and enjoyed training under you. that said, your comment above is arrogant and incorrect. There are thousands of places where double action/single action is taught, unless you're invalidating law enforcement training academies, military training units, and other facilities around the world. I'm not invalidating your training, but you're far from one of two on the planet.

As for striker fired being for the weak minded and the lesser persons, such arrogant misplaced talk can't be let go. The truth is that DA/SA was promulgated and rose to prominance to placate liability-fearing law enforcement and military beancounters. The notion of making that first shot just a bit harder to set off, making it "safer" than single action pistols, is what lead to the widespread use of DA/SA. It's not better.

Double action/single action is a handicap, which can be learned.

Your statement that all arguments against DA/SA are by those who can't do DA/SA is a false statement. It also smacks of arrogance, as in "I can do what you can't." Bullshit. DA/SA is, as the good Colonel often put, "an answer in search of a question."

No, double action/single action isn't "dead." It will be around for a very long time, possibly forever. It's not superior to anything, and does have distinct drawbacks. Again, they're drawbacks which can be learned-through, but they're not advantages.

I couldn't help but notice that at the course, you were shooting a Glock.

Haha. Pretty funny how the butt hurt goes.

Predictable, but funny.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Haha. Pretty funny how the butt hurt goes.

Predictable, but funny.

Predictable? How? You've never seen me shoot a DA/SA handgun. I own around 50 of them. You've never seen me shoot a revolver. I own a lot of those. Predictable based on what?

Butt hurt? Really? Care to explain that? You throw out the statement that the ONLY people who have anything negative to say about DA/SA are those who can't shoot them, then call me butt hurt and my statements predictable.

You have a leg to stand on?

Tell me how you're one of two people on the face of the planet capable of teaching DA/SA. You made the statement. Out of curiosity, who is the other?

You don't need to make false statements. You have the experience, capability, and skill to teach, compete, perform, and to stand behind your ability. Statements that you're one of two people who can teach DA/SA effectively, and that the ONLY people who don't embrace DA/SA are those who aren't capable, undermine you, and are unnecessary. You're talking to a supporter. Throwing sand in my face doesn't help your case.

I owe you absolutely nothing. You'll get absolutely nothing. The last time you made such ludicrous statements, when I addressed them, you went all passive/aggressive in saying I was trying to censor your opinion. You cried that you weren't allowed to have an opinion. I finally had to leave the thread, and send a text to the OP in apology.

Then you followed me into another couple of threads and attempted to pick a fight. I read your posts, laugh most of the time, and drive on.

You are free to your opinions. And I could care less.