Since my retirement I have worked part time as an instructor at the local range. Helping cope with the tremendous influx of new shooters. The vast majority of them are female. With absolutely no firearms experience.

And I have successfully taught dozens of these inexperienced petite females to shoot DA/SA pistols. And they shoot them VERY well. Many of them chose a DA/SA handgun rather than the striker fired plastic guns. Why? The extra weight of the metal frame gave them less felt recoil. And the smooth crisp trigger enabled them to get on paper and built up their confidence.

If little housewives can learn to shoot DA/SA without difficulty, I dont see where it should be a problem for "gun guys". My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
If little housewives can learn to shoot DA/SA without difficulty, I dont see where it should be a problem for "gun guys". My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

The problem is you have to have an open mind for that to actually work.

Roger that.

Can you share if one of those P series pistols being rumored involves a thin, single stack, compact 45? Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Roger that.

Can you share if one of those P series pistols being rumored involves a thin, single stack, compact 45? Regards 18DAI

Haven't heard anything about those.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Since my retirement I have worked part time as an instructor at the local range. Helping cope with the tremendous influx of new shooters. The vast majority of them are female. With absolutely no firearms experience.

And I have successfully taught dozens of these inexperienced petite females to shoot DA/SA pistols. And they shoot them VERY well. Many of them chose a DA/SA handgun rather than the striker fired plastic guns. Why? The extra weight of the metal frame gave them less felt recoil. And the smooth crisp trigger enabled them to get on paper and built up their confidence.

If little housewives can learn to shoot DA/SA without difficulty, I dont see where it should be a problem for "gun guys". My 0.02 Regards 18DAI

That's exactly the reason why my wife's favorite guns are her P226 Legion SAO (she couldn't pull the trigger on my P226 on DA) and her Wilson Compact Carry Beretta 92. The heavy metal frame soaks up felt recoil. She *LOVES* that Beretta.

When I introduced my wife to shooting, she was exposed to a 1911, glocks and various da/sa pistols. She just picked them up and shot them with no complaint whatsoever about long, heavy trigger pulls. To this day she prefers the da/sa guns, with a full size Beretta 92 being her favorite. I would never have expected that. She's never enjoyed shooting light weight striker fired pistols.

I had seven different women shoot the shield 9, XDs9, G43, G42, P239 and LC9. They did not like any of those guns, for various reasons. Felt recoil and an inability to get accurate hits being the two primary reasons.

I put an old S&W 3914 in their hands. They loved it. They shot it well and they could get good fast hits with it. It fit their hand (Hogue grips installed) None of them could understand why it was not being made today and offered for sale.

I told them about Gunbroker. Within two weeks time each of the seven had their own 3913s and 3914s.

I would suggest, based on my experience and observations, that as long as there are new female shooters entering the sport, metal framed hammer fired DA/SA guns are never going away. Regards 18DAI

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
As for striker fired being for the weak minded and the lesser persons, such arrogant misplaced talk can't be let go. The truth is that DA/SA was promulgated and rose to prominance to placate liability-fearing law enforcement and military beancounters. The notion of making that first shot just a bit harder to set off, making it "safer" than single action pistols, is what lead to the widespread use of DA/SA. It's not better.

This perspective may explain why so many people are confused about DA/SA pistols.

The German military and police were certainly not worried about legal liability or 'beancounting' in the 1930s when DA/SA pistols were developed and adopted in the form of the Walther PP and P38. The history of those guns makes it clear that Walther's goal was a gun that was fast to fire from the draw. And the solution to drawing and firing quickly without manipulating a manual safety was ... a double action trigger.

Did I mention that physics -not legal liability concerns, 'beancounting' or a desire to make a trigger 'harder'- requires a longer, heavier trigger to cock a hammer than simply to release a hammer?

When DA/SA autos began replacing DA/SA revolvers in the U.S. in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, the motivation was to increase firepower, particularly during the drug wars in the 1970s.

quote:

Originally posted by gc70:
This perspective may explain why so many people are confused about DA/SA pistols.

The German military and police were certainly not worried about legal liability or 'beancounting' in the 1930s when DA/SA pistols were developed and adopted in the form of the Walther PP and P38. The history of those guns makes it clear that Walther's goal was a gun that was fast to fire from the draw. And the solution to drawing and firing quickly without manipulating a manual safety was ... a double action trigger.

Did I mention that physics -not legal liability concerns, 'beancounting' or a desire to make a trigger 'harder'- requires a longer, heavier trigger to cock a hammer than simply to release a hammer?

When DA/SA autos began replacing DA/SA revolvers in the U.S. in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, the motivation was to increase firepower, particularly during the drug wars in the 1970s.

Ouch. Facts hurt and stuff.

No dog in this fight. Just trying to learn. Here is my question jljones.

I might be misreading you but you seem anti striker fired. I have read you had problems with your 320C as well. I chuckled and agreed with your assessment that admin pogues who suck with DA/SA suck less with striker. My question though is that wouldn't that very concept also mean that if you were good with DA/SA you would be better with striker?

If nothing else, if two identical people came on target, one with DA one with striker and started their trigger stroke, the striker guy would fire the first round first with less effort than the DA guy. I would think the subsequent rounds for both guys would roughly follow at about the same rate and effort.

Like I said, I am not trying to stir this pot but as much as I love my DA/SA stuff I think I would rather have a G19 or 320 in my hand if I had to use a handgun for real.

This is not to say I think the DA/SA is anywhere near dead. I personally buy a couple a year by myself. And you will never get my revolvers. lol

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
No dog in this fight. Just trying to learn. Here is my question jljones.

I might be misreading you but you seem anti striker fired. I have read you had problems with your 320C as well. I chuckled and agreed with your assessment that admin pogues who suck with DA/SA suck less with striker. My question though is that wouldn't that very concept also mean that if you were good with DA/SA you would be better with striker?

If nothing else, if two identical people came on target, one with DA one with striker and started their trigger stroke, the striker guy would fire the first round first with less effort than the DA guy. I would think the subsequent rounds for both guys would roughly follow at about the same rate and effort.

Like I said, I am not trying to stir this pot but as much as I love my DA/SA stuff I think I would rather have a G19 or 320 in my hand if I had to use a handgun for real.

This is not to say I think the DA/SA is anywhere near dead. I personally buy a couple a year by myself. And you will never get my revolvers. lol

I do believe you are misreading what I say. I shoot DA/SA. I shoot striker. I can burn a .75 draw on both. Neither take more "effort". Both require technique to hit the A Box at that speed. The DA is actually a whole lot easier to make the hit with, because there is more trigger to stroke. That is probably the reason why it sits atop of the production stats in USPSA. The trigger is not an on/off switch at that pace with a DA gun. If in your example, the DA guy understands how to shoot it, he is ALWAYS going to be more accurate than the striker dude. It is, as others have noted, simple physics. Arm length is going to have much, much more to do with who fires first, than the trigger mechanism will.

Me, anti-striker? As it was pointed out, I teach classes with striker fired guns too. My current project is actually an M&P 2.0. I'm issued nothing but striker fired guns. I can shoot them at a high level. But, I understand the whole picture. I understand the rabid arguments of the butt hurt. I understand policing as a nation, and the motives for this or that gun.

If the DA is not for you for serious work, cool. But, it isn't the fault of DA that it is not for you. It is your preference. And that is cool too. We live in great times with lots of choices.

I have zero problems with peoples choices. What I do take issue with is that people sling shit that they can't back up. "The DA shot is so much harder to learn". "The DA shot is a handicap". All stuff that is patently false. You have to learn the first shot on the press out with any handgun if you are going to shoot proactively. Regardless of the style. trigger mechanism.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:

If nothing else, if two identical people came on target, one with DA one with striker and started their trigger stroke, the striker guy would fire the first round first with less effort than the DA guy. I would think the subsequent rounds for both guys would roughly follow at about the same rate and effort.

Addressing the second part first, SA triggers on many contemporary DA/SA guns are considerably better than many if not most carry-worthy striker guns. Now, carry-worthy is obviously a subjective and personal thing but I think that most would agree that 4 or less lbs fully tensioned trigger sans any manual safety is perhaps a safety liability for carry purposes. Unlike a 4 or less lbs trigger that can only be unlocked by going through a DA shot first. Be it as it may, I personally do a lot better with my SA triggers of my DA/SA guns than my striker triggers, especially as distances increase.

In regards to the DA shot, there is some amount of intellectual and results-based debate among the DA/SA group. Some insist that they first bring the gun out and get some degree of a sight picture and then work the trigger. That intuitively sounds like it must be slower. Until you get some random dude who shoots sub-4.0 El Prez or sub-3.0 FAST say that this is the way he works his DA shot. And then there is a bunch of other GMs and Ms who back it up in matches of different levels as well. On the other side of a spectrum there are folks who teach initiation of trigger press during the process of extending the gun, something you cannot do with a striker. Ernest Langdon has put some nice videos on the Tube. It ends up being that the speed of a first shot if coming out of the holster and with a two handed grip is pretty similar between different trigger systems. It is really a pretty interesting subject that is not very easy to sort out without a decent personal training investment with various trigger designs. My own fastest first shot trigger is LEM and I know exactly why but it may not apply to others.
Fun subject, if you can filter out noise from signal.

I've found that shooting a Beretta Nano with its long and heavy first pull is making me a better shooter. I recently bought an HK P2000 V3 and while the DA is heavy it's not intimidating. I attribute this to the Nano as much as anything else.

Given how this thread is going, let me push it in the other direction. If DA/SA is good, why not just go DAO? I'm not being sarcastic about this. If a longer trigger pull is more controllable, eliminate the transition, and just have it be DA.

For Eons, most shooting was DA revolvers. The trigger was never the issue. The death of revolvers in police work was the capacity issue. Also, in a another direction, I've handled (but not shot) the P250 and P290, and wouldn't think I'd have any problems with those triggers. They were long, but very smooth and not particularly stiff.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
No dog in this fight. Just trying to learn. Here is my question jljones......

If nothing else, if two identical people came on target, one with DA one with striker and started their trigger stroke, the striker guy would fire the first round first with less effort than the DA guy......

Actually, with proper DA/SA technique, the longer DA trigger is simply prepped EARLIER in the cycle than a striker. A striker, with it's shorter travel, is prepped LATER in the cycle. It has no bearing on the elapsed time required to fire. Both are actually fired at the same time...when sights are aligned and gun is on target.

In other words, what the shooter is doing with the trigger prior to the actual shot (firing) doesn't matter time wise. With proper DA/SA trigger manipulation, you don't wait until the pistol has reached full extension with sights aligned to begin the trigger stroke.

This is easier to teach than verbally explain. I had two DA/SA shooters (P229 & B92) in one of our NRA BP classes who were very good shots using SA. I asked if they had used the DA and both said yes. Neither could hit anything with it. Within 20 minutes of demo, explanation and live fire, they both had very good DA/SA two shot groups. Fortunately, nobody had told them DA/SA pistols were too difficult to master.

The mistake many shooters make regarding trigger types is using the technique THEY want to use for that trigger. Instead, you have to determine what technique THE TRIGGER WANTS/NEEDS in order to get proper results on target. I shoot DA/SA, SAO, striker and revolvers. I use the technique each platform tells me it WANTS. Don't argue with Mother Nature.

RE the OP's original question:

What I or anybody else thinks about DA/SA doesn't really matter. If the manufacture doesn't have the sales volume to make a profit, ANY gun will be dropped from the lineup. Unsentimental fact of life.

Nipper's got it as usual.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I owe you absolutely nothing. You'll get absolutely nothing. The last time you made such ludicrous statements, when I addressed them, you went all passive/aggressive in saying I was trying to censor your opinion. You cried that you weren't allowed to have an opinion. I finally had to leave the thread, and send a text to the OP in apology.

Then you followed me into another couple of threads and attempted to pick a fight. I read your posts, laugh most of the time, and drive on.

You are free to your opinions. And I could care less.

I have made no ludicruous statements. You just did.

I never said you owed me anything. You've invented that, attrubuted it to me, and therefore, lied.

You did say that you're one of two in the world who can teach effective use of double action/single action. This is a lie.

Your repeated assertion that anyone who doesnt prefer DA/SA is not competent is perhaps your honest opinion, but ludicruous none the less.

And no, DA/SA is not dead.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Given how this thread is going, let me push it in the other direction. If DA/SA is good, why not just go DAO? I'm not being sarcastic about this. If a longer trigger pull is more controllable, eliminate the transition, and just have it be DA.

For Eons, most shooting was DA revolvers. The trigger was never the issue. The death of revolvers in police work was the capacity issue. Also, in a another direction, I've handled (but not shot) the P250 and P290, and wouldn't think I'd have any problems with those triggers. They were long, but very smooth and not particularly stiff.

A number of agencies have gone double action only. The long double action isnt the disadvantage. It's the long initial followed by the short single. It's a bandaid fix to a problem that didnt exist.

There have been oddball attempts to remedy it. The DaeWoo pistol with the light double action was one such effort, but never gained traction.

Sigs have a fantastic double action pull, as do Berettas. I quite like their standard action in the 220, 226, 229, 239. I like the DAK action, too. Much like the HK LEM.

Any trigger system can be learned. I love single action revolvers, and double action revolvers. Where a double action pull is available, I seldom cock a revolver; I use the double action trigger.

A revolver that reset to single action after the first shot would seem quite odd to me. We accept it in an auto, and its use is widespread. Thousands of agencies and units and departments and services teach it effectively. The trigger system continues in widespread use and production. It's still odd, though.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It's a bandaid fix to a problem that didnt exist.

This is one of the most objectionable statements encountered in DA/SA discussions.

Everyone has their own views of the pros and cons of different types of guns. A lot of people clearly do find value in the DA/SA trigger system and it is simply rude to unilaterally declare their views as baseless and invalid.

Let's all just cool it, please.