I'm a bit of a 1911 traditionalist. Or maybe "functionalist" is more like it. I appreciate the simplicity and the lack of glamour. I like the fact that my 1918 Colt is very similar to my Ed Brown or Colt 1991.

In the last couple of years it seems many manufacturers have come out with their version of what I jokingly call the "Starship Troopers" 1911. Fancy porting. Lots of slide cuts. Oddball checkering patterns. Angular grips. TiN coatings on barrels and other parts.

I don't get what problem this is trying to solve. Make a linkless setup? Sure, I can get onboard. I appreciate the DWX or even the old Springfield Peter Stahl Omega. External extractor? Fair -- they can get wonky. But what's making me scratch my head is all the excessive CNC work. I always wondered the point of checkering the back of the slide so I'm definitely not the target audience.

Exhibit 1: Kimber Rapide


Exhibit 2: STI Staccato


Ed Brown, Nighthawk, Wilson, they all seem to be jumping onboard this trend. So for those of you who have one or shot one, does it make a difference? Is the space gun aesthetic more than superficial?

As a counterpoint, here's my idea of a perfect 1911. It's my Ed Brown Executive Elite in a Raven Concealment holster with 47Ds; a short EGW trigger; and thin, Cocobolo grips on Challis bushings. No ambi safety, no inspiration by any reptilian animals, and no roll marks because my guns aren't ad space. I'd make Ken Hackathorn's moustache proud.




Finally, it's not that I'm an old curmudgeon. My Glocks have RMRs, flat triggers, and my G19 has grip work. It makes a difference -- especially the RMR and flat trigger. I appreciate STI/SVI race guns -- they're really easy to shoot (but terribly unreliable without a lot of TLC). And I really like the DWX -- I may even pick one up when they offer an RMR-milled version and the first-run kinks get worked out.

Tell me Sigforum brain trust -- am I missing something big? Is the traditional 1911 dying to be replaced with something that wouldn't look out of place at the Apple Store? Should I get my Ed Brown TiN coated so I can fit in with the cool kids?

Not entirely sure why your exhibit 2 is a Staccato. Aside from front serrations, I don't really know what's "excessive" about the machining. Certainly no window cutouts in the slide, no serrations on the back of the slide.

The fact that it doesn't have a traditional 1911 slide profile? People carped about that when SIG released the GSR all those years ago.

If you're referring to the particular cut of the slide serrations on the Staccato line, I will say they're more or less perfect. They work exactly as intended without being excessive. If you don't like front serrations, then you'll never like the gun regardless. But the Staccato has the most ideal serration format of any pistol I've handled.

If you're looking at a "Starship Trooper" gun with those criteria, seems like you should be looking at the Glock aftermarket or the 2011/SVI race gun world, but race guns are a different world entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by caneau:
I don't get what problem this is trying to solve

That is easy

Lack of Retail Sales

I own one 1911, a 1944 Remington Rand, so I’m hardly an enthusiast, but I believe there are two basic types of firearms: those designed and intended for serious purposes, and all the rest. I believe that serious purpose (primarily defensive) handguns should be reliable, reasonably accurate, and rugged (in that order). They should not be encumbered with unnecessary stuff—especially cosmetic stuff like openings into the slide mechanism that could affect reliability under adverse conditions. What do we do when something like that is dropped in the mud and we’ve lost our bushing wrench, or there really isn’t a lot of time available to field strip and clean it even if we haven’t?

Most people have no concept of what “adverse” conditions may involve, and even fewer would ever find themselves in such situations, but I don’t want my last thoughts to be, “Chit! I wish my gun hadn’t stopped working because I bled all over it.” (Far-fetched? Read up on the 1986 FBI gunfight in Miami.)

Yes, the tricked-out toys could and can be used for defensive purposes, but I wouldn’t stick one in my holster if the COVID-19 crazed multitudes started sweeping through the area in a desperate search for food. There’s nothing wrong with such guns any more than there is anything wrong with tricking out any of our possessions to enhance pride of ownership, or in the case of guns, to make them more useful for recreational purposes under sterile conditions. I believe, however, that I have a very clear understanding of the differences between the two basic types of guns. Some are truly suitable as weapons; some are not.

All my 1911s are basic, save upgraded sights. I like big, bright night sights.

I’m with you. I prefer the old school plain 1911. With that said I shot an STI DVC Carry which is the precursor to the Staccato. Holy shit! It’s a laser. I don’t think the slide cuts etc lend to its accuracy but I’d buy that pig on accuracy alone.

Ruger SR1911. Everything I want without all the frills.
And a rail on a 1911 is heresy!

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Ruger SR1911. Everything I want without all the frills.
And a rail on a 1911 is heresy!

I had one and agree. Great guns for the money. Wish more of the variants came with front strap checkering and a better undercut on the trigger guard. But those are both personal preference.

Seems to me the lightening cut thing started with the Glock long slides because they had to keep the weight of the slide the same as the normal full size slide to use the same recoil spring. They caught on and people liked them.

Then the mod companies like ZEZ, TTI, Agency Arms made them a thing. Sig put them on the early P320 X-Series too.

When I started shooting 15 years ago 1911's were everywhere in the stores, and new companies starting making them left and right. During the AWB there was a resurgence of the 1911 because if you are limited to 10 rounds in a full size pistol, the 1911 is not a bad choice at 8+1. No sense buying a neutered 15-17 round 9mm. Coming out of the AWB there was still a lot of 1911 momentum, and more and more companies starting making them (Sig, Remington, Ruger), but things seem to be stalling now.

Just like Harley Davidson rode the retro-bike nostalgia of the 90's and 2000's, they are in trouble now. The target market got older and younger riders don't see the value in a big heavy cruiser for the kind of money you have to spend on one. Similarly, younger kids that grew up after the 1911 left military service and after the rise of Glock aren't as interested in an "old gun".

I think part of this is due to the rules for competition shooting. NRA Bullseye favors the 1911 for the .45, 1911 in .45 for the "any centerfire", and a 1911 with a .22 conversion for .22. Why? You can have the same gun for each stage, same trigger tuning, etc. But yeah, standing with one hand in your pocket, shooting one handed at 50 yards just doesn't attract that many new competitors. A lot of the interest in slow and patient shooting for accuracy has gone to long range rifle shooting.

Modern action pistol competition shooting and 3-gun favors Glock type actions, or DA/SA hammer down for the production divisions, and only allow SAO pistols in higher level divisions that get very costly to be competitive - i.e. Race Guns.

Looking at my local shops, the 1911's seem to hang around longer and get less interest. Inexpensive ones sell (RIA, Springfield Legacy, some others) but the Glocks and other plastic moves much faster and get more interest.

I never would have predicted $2000+ customized Glocks like Agency, ZEV, and TTI, but there they are and their use in movies like John Wick II and III have enhanced their popularity. And now as others said, in an interest to attract new customers, 1911's are going this way too. I think the top reason is the appeal of the TTI STI Combat Master in John Wick II. Will it help? Maybe. We have already seen the demise of S&W 3rd generation, the Hi-Power, and now the significant cut backs on the Sig Sauer Classic Series. Beretta is hanging on with the 92 with the M9A3, 92X, and the Langdon Tactical, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

Personally, I like the classic 1911 profile with no front serrations, and minimal changes except what is needed. Novak sights are nice, but I prefer something smaller that fits the original dovetail and keeps the old lines. I need an ambi safety, and something to prevent hammer bite. Currently, the Nighthawk Colt Series 70 is about perfect except I don't know if they can make an ambi GI safety (I asked, waiting to hear). After that, Ed Brown's more classic styled ones.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Lefty Sig,

I personally love TiN barrels or components because they are absurdly easy to clean. Any horrific gunk can be wiped off with a finger. Sure it looks a bit too bling, but I love the function.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
I personally love TiN barrels or components because they are absurdly easy to clean. Any horrific gunk can be wiped off with a finger. Sure it looks a bit too bling, but I love the function.

Titanium Nitride has the gold color, but is anybody using Titanium Aluminum Nitride which is silver blue? It's even better than TiN as a coating on solid tungsten carbine cutting tools.

All those lightning holes would seem ideal places to put dirt and grit. Collection ports, perhaps.

Odd that they bother with the dust cover, after all...

quote:

Originally posted by Oat_Action_Man:
Not entirely sure why your exhibit 2 is a Staccato. Aside from front serrations, I don't really know what's "excessive" about the machining. Certainly no window cutouts in the slide, no serrations on the back of the slide.

The fact that it doesn't have a traditional 1911 slide profile? People carped about that when SIG released the GSR all those years ago.

If you're referring to the particular cut of the slide serrations on the Staccato line, I will say they're more or less perfect. They work exactly as intended without being excessive. If you don't like front serrations, then you'll never like the gun regardless. But the Staccato has the most ideal serration format of any pistol I've handled.

I thought the same thing about the Staccato being on there. Hell if anything the current production Staccatos with the Gen 2 grip are more "practical" since they lack the fake lower grip screws.

The Staccato isn't too bad. I'd never trust a 2011 for "real" purposes especially in 9mm with a light. That's a failure to extract or feed waiting to happen.

Here's a better example for Exhibit 3:



It's not that I don't understand why these guns exist. They look different and I'm sure turn heads at the range. You can't tell apart my $3000 Ed Brown from a $300 RIA from a COVID-safe distance.

All this "sculpting" leaves me cold, too.
My plain vanilla STI Eagle shoots just as well as a John Wick Special and looks better to me.

A lot of the small shops selling carefully crafted race guns are putting in Dagmars, tail fins, and Cruiserline Ventiports in gorgeous colors. There is one outfit running way behind on deliveries - they all do, but this one worse than usual - because their fancy finish contractor had an industrial accident that killed an employee. No doubt they are going round and round with lawyers and OSHA instead of coating guns.

There is one such outfit selling a simple contour plain finish pistol with all the shooting capabilities of their ballistic art for hundreds less. I wonder how their sales break down.

I have one of those vented slide and TiN pistols of Glock architecture. It is not my primary weapon and I decided if I was going to build it myself, I didn't want it to look like my other Glocks. Firstly, I traded into a second generation G22. Then I wanted a 357 Sig carbine, 45 Auto, 10mm, 38 Super, 7.65mm Para...

Yeah, the next one was a break away from convention. I wanted a glock style gun and I didn't have a 9mm. The new ZEV slide had the holes in it, but it set me back about forty bucks. That had me in the market for a TiN treatment. Got the idea that a box fluted barrel would look best. Trijicon RMRs on Black Friday? Yup.

Haven't taken the same route with a 1911 yet. I was able to get my first 2011 race gun for $800. Found a 2011 in 10mm, a second hand SVI...

I wouldn't limit myself to owning a pistol based solely on what it looks like or what material it is made from.

Gucci guns.

Personally I don't care for 'em, but variety is NEVER a bad thing for the gun business. The Rapide gets A LOT of attention in our shop, though no one has bellied up to the proverbial bar and actually bought one. Kinda like a CZ Shadow Orange or a SIG P210A in that regard. They are a bit on the pricey side for the average pistol buyer. Aside from the lightening cuts, frankly it's not all that different a mindset than the sorts of customizations WC offers with any number of their models. Nor is it all that much different than someone contacting Esmeralda for a set of exotic wood stocks for his otherwise plain vanilla S&W revolver, or to Nill for wood grips on a P229 (guilty as charged). Plenty guys want their gear to look...um...pretty...I guess...

Some guns are designed for utility, others for vanity.

Give me a plain jane COLT, SPRINGFIELD or KIMBER any day. Let me fix it up the way I want.

Is it really beyond our mental grasp as to why a company would offer something for sale? Has one size ever really fit all in retail? Pistol buyers range in age from 21 to 100. All different taste ranges. One pistol from over 100 years ago won’t get you very far as a retailer.