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| Freethinker |
That’s obviously true, but it doesn’t prove that the problem that’s been reported by many shooters is caused by anticipating the recoil in the usual sense. I’ve seen that many times and it usually manifests itself in a much more obvious way than a consistent miss to the left by a relatively small degree. It will be worth the effort to check to see by using ball and dummy drills, but at the moment I doubt that’s the issue. As I’ve mentioned several times, it would be odd for experienced shooters to start doing that just because they were given a new gun to shoot. I appreciate your comment, though, because now I’ve been thinking more about “Why wouldn’t there be a POI difference if the gun were clamped in a vise?” And that led me to think about my recent experiences with precision rifles chambered for the 22 Long Rifle cartridge. Much of my shooting is from a bench rest at tiny targets using high quality ammunition. What I’ve found is that there is virtually no perceptible recoil to “anticipate,” but how the rifle is positioned and held on the rest and how the trigger is pulled have noticeable accuracy effects. I.e., the gun does “react” differently when discharged depending upon the pressures and contacts at that moment, and any variance can affect where the bullet hits. When shooting I try to keep all those variables to a minimum, but sometimes I’m not successful enough to prevent unexpected POI changes. I suspect something essentially similar is what accounts at least in part for why so many right-handed Glock shooters miss consistently to the left under some circumstances. They’re obviously doing something to cause the deviation, but it might not be anything that they can consciously control, except, perhaps, by adopting one of the measures that previous posters have mentioned to prevent the pistol from moving off target at the moment of discharge. All this reminds me of a member here who used to prate about how people were trying to find a hardware solution to a particular “software” problem—as if software solutions were always superior to hardware solutions. My response to the idea was that human beings have been trying to find hardware solutions to life’s problems ever since we split off from our common ancestor with chimpanzees. That’s why, to cite one of innumerable examples, we have guns rather than still throwing rocks to obtain food. Unfortunately in this case the hardware solution isn’t available and therefore I will strive to find a software solution, but I can certainly wish for the former. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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| Member |
Valid points. Thank you. I see the word “precision” in your description of shooting the .22 Rifle. I find that when shooting precision shots, I have to be hyper aware of “twitching, jerking or otherwise moving. I think while we are (at least I am) doing is, working on grip. Taking a deep breath. Letting it out slowly. Watching the sight (cross hair. Dot, whatever) gently bob around as we press the trigger, with our heartbeat, muscles settling, slight breeze etc. there is a tendency to see a perfect sight picture and, “jerk”, however slightly, the trigger. Causing a less than optimal shot. For me, anyway, shooting can be high speed, low drag noisy experience. Or, almost Zen like. Depending on what I’m trying to do! I believe for many shooters, even when that level of precision is not called for, the “That looks perfect, hit that trigger FAST before it moves.” Is a real thing. | |||
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Casuistic Thinker and Daoist |
I used to wonder the same thing as I have experienced this with clients who choose to take instruction with Glocks. I found that if I grabbed a Glock...usually a G19 or G34...after spending time with my M&P9,P320 or S&W 686 that my shots would initially go to the right of the target The symptoms really do appear to be platform related and goes beyond the usual, "You're slapping the trigger in anticipation." The two main contributors to the issue seem to be. 1. Adapting to the partially cocked striker. While clients are often told to take up the "slack" and prep the trigger, they mistake the beginning of pressure to be the break point. When they add a bit more pressure to break the shot, it doesn't immediately go. Their obvious response to to apply additional pressure. But because they now perceive that they are "behind the curve"...and the sights are drifting from the target...they do indeed slap through the trigger 2. The other thing that I've observed...which applies to shooters with a better trigger control... is that they are gripping more with the fingertips of their strong hand. The fingers of the strong hand should only be griping straight back into the "pocket" formed by the base of the thumb and the palm. Lateral pressure with the fingertips, and even worst with the thumb....if they lock the thumb down...moves the grip to the right. The only pressure the fingertips of the strong hand should be applying to the frame is that being transfers by the palm of the support hand. The support hand palm and fingertips should be trying to crush the frame of the pistol. An often applied "hack" is to use the support hand thumb to push inward against the frame forward of the trigger guard...to push the gun "back onto target" No, Daoism isn't a religion | |||
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Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best |
The Glock grip is an un-ergonomic slab with a weird grip angle. I can shoot them ok, but it takes some extra effort and intentionality since I don't have the time on them that I do my Sigs. My natural tendency is actually to shoot them high. First priority is establishing a proper grip. The square shape of the Glock grip is awkward, and I have to put extra effort into making sure I'm not leaving gaps between my hand and the grip. Grip pressure should be predominantly front and rear, with minimal but even contact on the sides. Squeezing with the fingers instead of torquing the wrist helps with keeping the gun centered, too. Finger positioning on the trigger is also specific to each shooter and their hand size related to the gun. I've seen a lot of folks get hung up on placing the trigger shoe in the center of the first pad of their index finger, but the geometry is different for everyone. What's important is to find the spot on the finger where it is easiest for them to pull the trigger to the rear without disturbing the sights. This is pretty easy to figure out in dry fire...then it's just a matter of consistently applying it. | |||
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fugitive from reality |
That video is very close to how bullseye shooters practice dry fire drills. In the case of BE shooting, the shooter is looking at the sights or dot, but it's against a blank backdrop. What the shooter is looking for is to pull the trigger fully to the rear without disturbing the sights. I also liked the earlier video showing the 'high' two handed grip. I've been using that grip for about 10 years, and it works on every semi auto I've tried it on. The higher your overall grip is, the easier it is to manage recoil. When shooting Glocks I noticed a couple of things that could be causeing the low left issue your shooters were having. The grip angle of the Glock requires that the shooter roll their wrists slightly downward compared to shooting a 1911\Sig\S&W etc. If the shooter isn't familiar with this hold it can cause inconsistancy issues while pulling the trigger. The second issue is the Glock trigger itself. I haven't had this issue with any other striker fired pistol, but the way the Glock action works it seems to 'stack' right before it releases. And by stack I don't mean like a 1911 or other two stage single action type trigger. The Glock hits the wall, and many shooters start throwing shots to the support side. The lighter the trigger, the less this is an issue, but in a right handed shooter this tends to push shot groupes to the left. I didn't fully eliminate throwing an occasional shot until I got rid of the stock Glock trigger and went with a flat faced one. So I guess the answer is more dry fire to show the shooter what the gun is actually doing, as opposed to just repeating the shot process without understanding why the shots are going where they're going.
_____________________________ 'I'm pretty fly for a white guy'. | |||
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| Freethinker |
Thanks again for all the replies. You've given me a lot to think about and apply for future training. ► 6.4/93.6 ___________ “We are Americans …. Together we have resisted the trap of appeasement, cynicism, and isolation that gives temptation to tyrants.” — George H. W. Bush | |||
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