This is an issue that has been discussed a little in the past, but a recent experience prompted me to raise it again.

A few years ago I learned here that right-handed Glock shooters tended to miss left and sometimes low as well because of how they unintentionally move the pistol at the moment of firing. At the time the advice provided was that it’s necessary to have a firm grip on the pistol to prevent its muzzle from moving left due to increased grip pressure when pulling the trigger.

Based on that information and focusing on good trigger control, at the time I was able to help a couple of Glock shooters improve their accuracy by overcoming that tendency.

Fast forward to recently. A group of shooters, most of whom were inexperienced with Glocks went through a somewhat intensive two-day transition course to familiarize them with that pistol. The first day they fired 250 rounds and at the start of the second day they fired about another 130 rounds. Then the shooting shifted to engaging an IPSC-sized steel silhouette that was hanging on the t-post in the below picture, and they each fired about 100 rounds at it (plus more rounds at other targets).

Now the photo becomes the point of this thread.





As I say, the steel silhouette target was hanging from the t-post (with the white top, not its shadow to the right).

The area boxed in yellow is where the vast majority of the shots that missed the silhouette hit the backstop berm. The missed impacts exposed the underlying dirt that wasn’t as dry and was therefore darker. To the right of the t-post are a few—very few—dark spots that were also caused by misses.

As the photo shows, the vast majority of the many misses were left and sometimes low to the target. Most of the shots were fired from 15 to 20 yards from the target, so it wasn’t a exceptionally difficult challenge, but what’s important is where virtually all of the misses went: left, and sometimes left and low.
(The right edge of the impact area appears closer to the post than it was because of the angle of the photo. I’m not sure how well it will show up, but the area shaded by the silhouette itself is outlined on the ground as well.)

When the shooters were firing at the steel silhouette for one drill I kept urging them to fire faster, and the second section was under low light conditions using night sights only or weapon-mounted lights for illumination. The first part of the second day session used paper targets and the accuracy was much better, but even then shots that weren’t clustered along the centerline of the target were all to the left.

I and another instructor kept emphasizing the need to properly control their Glock pistols to eliminate that “left and low” tendency, and not only properly gripping the gun, but also good trigger control to avoid pushing the trigger to the left while pulling it to the rear. During slow fire at paper targets that constant guidance usually worked pretty well, but obviously became much less effective when shooters were firing at speed and dealing with manipulating their weapon lights as well as shooting.

If you’ve read this far, any ideas about how to correct and eliminate right-handed Glock shooters’ tendency to miss left and low of the target? And, yes: besides “more shooting with individual instruction.” As it was, each shooter fired over 500 rounds and virtually every shot was fired while at least one, and often two experienced instructors were watching and critiquing the shooter.

Thanks for the replies.

This seemed like BS to me but I tried it and I shoot my Glocks better. Specifically the weird thing where you get your right thumb up and out of the way and crank it next to the frame. It's awkward and feels weird if you've been shooting a standard thumbs-forward grip for decades but for me it actually improved my hits. I didn't really change anything else about my grip or push/pull or anything else he mentions in the video. Just the cranking of the thumb seen about 1:24 in this video

https://youtu.be/aunhMKRSOas?si=UXOcW-skPtMnzgfq

Try it and see what you think.

You can also try this method but note that Bob Vogel is a frickin robot with massive steel paws.

https://youtu.be/45QhpvY9LZc?si=1nxEwie8nLXgfKfS

For me what helps the most is to remember to really grip hard with my support hand. I read somewhere that the support hand should be doing 70% of the gripping.

What has also helped, though not as much, is playing with and modifying the back straps. You can change how the gun points pretty drastically.

I’ve been helping my sister in law with her shooting (S&W Shield) and her low/left tendency is due to anticipation of recoil, evident when she comes across a dummy round placed in her mag.

Don't know the answer to your question, but is this problem only Glocks? I was somehow under the impression that low and left was a common miss for handguns in general.

The problem is prevalent due to grip angle. You hear people say “more finger” and claim it works, but the limited results aren’t because of “more finger” it’s because they have altered how the gun is being held.

The real problem is side loading of the grip. If I grip the gun in a way that I apply pressure front and back ( no side pressure) the problem goes away.

For me, the guidance that made a difference is to point with my thumbs.

With an Sig, I was taught point with my right index finger, and that worked for me.

Due to the grip angle, I thought I could not shoot a Glock well. Then I heard the advice to point with my thumbs.

For me it works. YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
If I grip the gun in a way that I apply pressure front and back ( no side pressure) the problem goes away.

I concur w/ this. I think this is what has worked for me. Another thing that helps for me is to not apply grip pressure w/ my pinky edge of hand, especially when pressing the trigger. Most pressure to the grip is applied using the ring/middle finger and the meat of the palm. This was learned while shooting the 26. The final thing is the trigger finger - make sure I'm pressing it straight back rather than rolling/curving the finger (this may be specific for me given my small-ish hands).

These three things help me keep POI = POA.

I would start off by making sure each shooter has the correct backstrap for their hand size.
People usually choose a backstrap based on what feels good and not what makes them shoot more consistently.

I’ve always had the low and left problems with Gen 3 and 4 glocks. Never experienced it with other comparable polymer platforms. (HKVP9, M&P, PPQ etc) I just chalked it up to having smaller hands, that leading to difficulty with a proper grip.

Then came the Gen 5 Glocks. Low and left mysteriously disappears. I didn’t change anything at all about my shooting grip, trigger finger placement, technique etc. Even shot a gen 4 and 5 g19 side by side. Low and left with the gen 4. Not with the gen 5.

I think I remember reading on pistol forums a theory that stated there was something inherently flawed with the gen 3/4 locking block geometry, further exemplified by uneven wear patterns seen on well used ones. I’m not an engineer or gunsmith but maybe they were on to something there.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
Don't know the answer to your question, but is this problem only Glocks?

That’s a good question and although it’s somewhat off track from what I’m hoping to learn, it’s my thread so I’ll pursue it a bit.

As I mentioned above, it was years ago that I first learned on the forum here that it was an issue that Glock shooters commonly experienced, and it was from someone whom I respect and was/is a firm fan of the pistols. It hadn’t ever come to my attention before, nor have I ever seen the “low, left” issue mentioned in connection with any other make/model of handgun. Are there videos like the one 1KPerDay linked that pertain to specific makes other than Glocks that address a similar problem? Perhaps, but at this point I’m concerned about Glocks, and I’d be surprised if other videos referred only to the specific problem I’m asking about, rather than just how to improve one’s shooting in general.

Is it possible to miss left with any gun? Sure. Is it possible to miss right with Glocks? Sure. But legitimate patterns can and do exist.

Many years ago the author of a Scientific American article observed that “Believing is seeing.” Today we call that confirmation bias: we see what we expect to see.

When I first saw shooter after shooter miss targets by hitting left—and very seldom right—with their newly-issued Glocks, only then did the “That’s a problem with Glocks” claim come back to me. It was observation first and memory second; not the reverse. Did I then start noticing it more because of that memory? Probably, but we don’t always see things just because we expect to see them. In fact, what really drove home the question to me was going back to the range yesterday and noticing what’s obvious in the photo I posted above and which is there for anyone to see regardless of their expectations.

Another example of what I’m referring to is the issue of “limp wrist” malfunctions when an autoloading pistol isn’t held firmly enough to allow the slide to move independently of the frame (or SIG P320 and P365 “grip modules”) and therefore ejection and chambering failures occur.

This is something else that many people have noted is more common with Glock pistols. There is at least one Internet video in which the narrator demonstrates the clear difference in susceptibility to the problem between a Glock and other makes. It’s also something I’ve observed with my own nonlying eyes.

One shooter in my latest sessions is a very small woman with whom I’d had several years’ experience training and seeing her shoot a SIG P320. Never once in the past did she have any failures due to not holding the pistol firmly enough. The first time she shot a Glock, however: failure to chamber. That occurred two or three times, but fortunately with a little guidance about ensuring her arms were fully extended and elbows locked, she had no further problems while shooting with both hands normally.

But then it was time to shoot with one’s nondominant hand only: failure to chamber every time and nothing she did prevented the problem. And to reiterate, she had plenty of experience shooting a P320 with her left hand only and the problem had never occurred with that pistol.

Can “limp wrist” failures occur with any autoloading pistol as some Glock apologists like to point out in supposed defense of their favorite handguns? Yes.
Are they more common with Glocks, however, and common enough that even their firm fans recognize and will sometimes admit? Also yes.

Anyway, my purpose in posting this thread is not to bash Glocks, but to possibly learn what I can do to address an obvious problem that many of my trainees are having and regardless of whether it might not be limited to only Glocks.

And thanks for all the responses thus far.

Not sure this helps, I took a look at some old pics. Looks like I had a tendency to shoot left (not low left, just left) with P226 and P2000. Low left was only with Glock.

I noticed also that this tendency was only for 7 yards or less. Moving the target to 15-25 yards, I had a tendency to shoot high. Go figure.

Again, since corrected using the points enumerated above. And lessons from 9mmE.

They are flinching and jerking the trigger. Their hand is moving before the gun fires. Really. That’s it. Whatever grip they have, no matter what pistol it is. If the sights are aligned, and STAY aligned while the gun goes bang, it will hit where it’s aimed. Period.

Do dummy round drills with them, let them, and you, see they are pulling the sights off before then fires, then address that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1KPerDay:

I tried it and I shoot my Glocks better.

https://youtu.be/aunhMKRSOas?si=UXOcW-skPtMnzgfq

Try it and see what you think.[QUOTE]

The only advice you should pay attention to is the link to the above mentioned video by The Humble Marksman YouTube video. Institute this grip with dry practice drills, and a lot of what's going on with your shooters starts to go away relatively quickly.

Make sure you combine this with a solid stance, with feet shoulder width apart with the right foot, (if right handed) slightly drifting back, with toes of both feet facing the target. Knees are slightly bent, and shooter should be leaning slightly forward at the waist, (NOT at the ankles). Lastly make sure elbows are slightly bent, using the aformentioned grip.

I will look into and check the possibility of anticipating recoil using dummy rounds, but it’s odd that experienced individuals who have been shooting for years and who haven’t had the problem before with other pistols to any detrimental degree would suddenly start falling into that practice.

Any idea why that would be now other than that the shape of the Glock grip makes it more uncomfortable to shoot than, for example, the SIG P320? Long ago I rejected any idea of getting a Glock in 40 S&W (my preference over 9mm) because the time I shot one it hurt my hand, and more than just a little. On the other hand, 9mm Glocks don’t bother me.

And, yes, stance and all that helps with accurate shooting, especially when firing strings, and those are also things that the shooters were familiar with. But thanks for mentioning them.

None of that is to suggest that we had a gaggle of Grand Master level shooters who suddenly fell apart when handed Glocks, but a fundamental troubleshooting principle is to look at what changed when a problem arises. In this case it was primarily the transition to Glocks.

This may sound weird, but I have found that when I have a very firm support hand grip while pushing up on the trigger guard while pulling the trigger that I have better results. Obviously that could just be an anomaly only applicable to me. There is also some push-pull with the support hand and firing hand with most of the pressure front to back.

quote:

Originally posted by Ogie:
I have found that when I have a very firm support hand grip while pushing up on the trigger guard while pulling the trigger that I have better results.

Hmm .... Something else to consider; thanks.

Check out some Ben Stoeger, Joel Park and Mason Lane videos.

Trigger control at speed is a good drill, dry fire or live.

Also, don’t give up on the gun. Maintain the grip through the firing cycle.

Let them watch this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...aHRzIGFyZSB1c2VsZXNz

If you lock any one of those Glocks in a vice…they will hit exactly where they are aimed. Period.
Grip angle. How much hand is gripping the gun. How much pressure. Doesn’t mean squat if they are a missing a target that big and that close. They are moving the gun before it fires.

I’ve been shooting for 50 years. The faster I go, the higher a probability I’ll still pull a shot occasionally.

quote:

Originally posted by Riley:
Check out some Ben Stoeger, Joel Park and Mason Lane videos.

Trigger control at speed is a good drill, dry fire or live.

Also, don’t give up on the gun. Maintain the grip through the firing cycle.

I came in here to recommend trigger control at speed.

Start with the finger touching the trigger shoe. Progress to the finger straight outside of the trigger guard. Use a shot timer (free app is fine). On the beep, pull the trigger all the way through (ideally within the duration of the beep).

Alter your grip and repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat until you have proper pressures to not move the gun.

Grip is the answer, not trigger control.