I was big into PS a decade or so ago. The best book on the subject IMHO is “Bullseyes Don’t Shoot Back.”

For most shooting sights are best and I’ve ever ran across a PS trainer who didn’t agree sights are important. I feel everyone needs at least 2 practiced PS positions though if they are serious about personal protection. An extreme close range retention position and a mid range position (say hits 3-7 yds)

The mid range position is for times when either a full extension gets the gun too close to opponents or times when the light just sucks and you can’t see the sights (carrying the snub or puny .380?), or the front sight fell the F off (I’ve had it happen.)

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Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
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They taught point shooting, or at least target-focused shooting, or at least their training deputy did. They also taught getting the first shot off, even if not on target. The idea was whoever shot first put the other guy off their game, and maybe some splatter from hitting the ground would hurt them. Wasn’t sure I bought into the idea, but wasn’t my place to question.
...

Well, now that is interesting. I had heard or read of others advocate for firing the first round in a fight even if not on target, but until now, I'd never read of a major federal LEA adopting and training that strategy.

Tom Cruise use point shooting on his first shot to bad guy #1 in this 'Collateral' scene.
https://youtu.be/oEFPcljAXgs

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Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
...

They taught point shooting, or at least target-focused shooting, or at least their training deputy did. They also taught getting the first shot off, even if not on target. The idea was whoever shot first put the other guy off their game, and maybe some splatter from hitting the ground would hurt them. Wasn’t sure I bought into the idea, but wasn’t my place to question.
...

Well, now that is interesting. I had heard or read of others advocate for firing the first round in a fight even if not on target, but until now, I'd never read of a major federal LEA adopting and training that strategy.

When the marines transitioned to the Beretta, they taught getting the DA shot off even if it was in the dirt in front of you to get the gun into single action as quickly as possible. Horrible technique circa 1989.

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Well, now that is interesting. I had heard or read of others advocate for firing the first round in a fight even if not on target, but until now, I'd never read of a major federal LEA adopting and training that strategy

No way that works in a civilian defensive environment or LE, at least not these days. It flies in the face of the concept of round accountability, and is a nightmare civil case for any instructor. I can just see it now:

Attorney: "What were you aiming at when you shot my client?"

Student: "I wasn't. Instructor so-and-so told me it was more important to get off the first shot in a gunfight than making sure that shot hit the bad guy, so I just squeezed the trigger as fast as I could and dumped one through the wall into the neighboring apartment."

I'm not saying I'm perfect or that I'd never miss under pressure in a dynamic defensive situation, but there's a difference between accidentally missing the target and trained willful negligence.

If I recall correctly, John Farnam advocated for zippering up your assailant, starting at about the pelvic girdle and going up from there. That sounds like a reasonable idea when shooting a double/single action pistol.

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Originally posted by RichardC:

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Originally posted by 10round:
Whereas you don't see people using point shooting in low light with a flashlight, around corners or tight spaces, transverse or sagittal planes, with movement... You know, how things really go down.

You don't see people doing this on most ranges outside of formal classes, because insurance/liability.

My point being, point shooting doesn't work as well in less-than-ideal circumstances, IMHO.

I practice all the time on my 8" steels at 50 feet.
It's become second nature to pull my Peacemaker and hip shoot the steel.
The Colt was designed to be pointed.
I can fan the hammer and still hit.

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Originally posted by Ogie:
If I recall correctly, John Farnam advocated for zippering up your assailant, starting at about the pelvic girdle and going up from there. That sounds like a reasonable idea when shooting a double/single action pistol.

You recall correctly.

However, zippering the adversary had nothing to do with getting a round off first, or taking unaimed shots. Similar concepts are taught in the context of body armor drills.

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Originally posted by kidcop:

quote:

Originally posted by Ogie:
If I recall correctly, John Farnam advocated for zippering up your assailant, starting at about the pelvic girdle and going up from there. That sounds like a reasonable idea when shooting a double/single action pistol.

You recall correctly.

However, zippering the adversary had nothing to do with getting a round off first, or taking unaimed shots. Similar concepts are taught in the context of body armor drills.

It has everything to do with getting the first round off and hitting first thus disrupting your assailant's plans.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
They also taught getting the first shot off, even if not on target. The idea was whoever shot first put the other guy off their game, and maybe some splatter from hitting the ground would hurt them.

That notion goes back at least to W. E. Fairbairn and his Shanghai experience starting in the 1920s. He was what can be described as a tactical close quarters shooting/gunfighting innovative genius and among many other things that influence practices to this day, he developed what was arguably the world’s first police SWAT team in a highly dangerous law enforcement environment. On the other hand, he had the thumb safeties of the 1911 and other Colt autoloading pistols that were issued to his personnel pinned in the off position and dictated that they normally be carried with empty chambers and partially-loaded magazines. So not all of his ideas have carried forward to the present.

The objection I have to the idea that we should attempt to fire so quickly that shots may sometimes go into the dirt at our target’s feet is primarily safety. I support the idea of “prepping” the trigger for self-defense shooting, but that is different. If we are putting so much pressure on the trigger so early in the drawing and engagement process that we can expect to discharge rounds while the gun is still pointed at the ground, there would be a very fine line between a shot into the ground and a shot fired before the gun has cleared the holster. With some holsters and methods of carry that would mean nothing more than needing a new holster and perhaps having to clear a failure to eject malfunction, but with other holsters and methods of carry a too-early discharge could have serious consequences for the shooter. As for “putting someone off his game,” a bullet through our own leg or foot would probably do that.

I also believe that the benefit of discharging a shot between clearing the holster and having the gun pointed at the target is simply imaginary. The very largest percentage of the time necessary to draw and engage a target at point-shooting distances is reacting to the stimulus, grasping the gun, releasing any retention devices, and getting it out of the holster. The time required to move the gun onto target after it’s cleared the holster is extremely short for anyone with a modicum of gun-handling skill.

Lastly, what makes us believe that getting a shot off so fast that it goes into the dirt will have any meaningful effect on the target anyway? What studies have demonstrated that? And how much time do we anticipate taking between the scary, in-the-dirt shot and the first one that’s actually intended to hit the target?

We can all do what we want, but that practice isn’t something I’d ever strive to adopt myself or teach anyone else.

One of the most famous examples of point shooting:

Shot a USPSA type match a few months back, it was up close and personal, "garlic breath" distance. 8 targets, starting from the left and working right. It's the type of stage where you want to gas the fuck up and look like a cool guy shooting fast and shooting alphas. I was at "cant miss" distance so I was on the gas. I was impressed with myself, I didn't realize you could have so many mikes at that distance.

So for me, I dont practice point shooting, I use my sights and I use my red dots.