Years ago, our USPSA club had a "Carry Night" competition each month (circa IDPA) where everyone shot a carry/production class pistol using a conceal carry holster. Round count was usually 8-16 rounds with target distances point blank to 7 yards. I always used a CZ75 BD which for me had great ergonomics. Don't think I ever saw the front site on those stages - just looked right over the sights.
|A teetotaling |
Most anyone that's been shooting for a while and has good basic skills and technique should be able to shoot center of mass on a silhouette target at 5 yards without seeing the sights. It just takes a bit of practice. I'll bet most in-house shooting in an average sized room is done without conscious sight alignment. If you have a light on you gun, a good drill is to draw (or pick up off the range table if that's allowed) with the light on and point at the target. Most lights will project very close to where the POI will be. You can do this at home (all safety precautions made of course) along with dry fire drills.
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Most of my shooting is done by point shooting. When you develop good form, point shooting should be just as accurate for you as aiming down the sights, as they go hand in hand. Given there are times you need to look down the sights, for distance shooting.
I shot a rabbit running about 5 yards away this weekend with my P322. I shot twice and hit him with one in the spine just below the head. I wasn't aiming, just pointing and shooting.
If a shooter is as accurate with point shooting as with aimed fire, he isn’t very accurate with aimed fire. I have no objection to using unsighted fire when appropriate, and I do it regularly when appropriate, but “as accurate”—? Nope.
When I’m demonstrating unsighted fire at 3-4 yards and starting from the low ready for each shot, I can put most shots into/very close around a 2×2" paster which is pretty good as compared with most shooters I have seen. When aiming at that distance all my shots go through one (ragged) hole exactly where I’m aiming. There may be others who can do that without aiming, but they are very few among us mortals.
|Little ray |
No, I never have.
I want to see the sight picture I need to see to hit the target I am shooting at. The sight picture I need to see will vary a lot depending on the target and the range. At very close range and with a moderately large target, all I may need to see is the front blade somewhere in the rear notch and on the target. At long range with a smaller target, I will need to see a precisely aligned sight picture, exactly where I need the hit.
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|Like a party |
in your pants
I always taught and practiced point shooting when I was an instructor.
Fastest draw and fire technique there is.
Essential if you are faced with ambush type situations where you don't want to extend your gun out and face the assailant, one or more, taking it away from you.
It also allows you to have your other arm and hand free to help address the attackers.
IIR this topic has been somewhere on the great Sigforum quite some time ago. When I was reading a lot of shooting rags, I read about point shooting, but I STILL don't know wtf it actually IS. I gave up on it a long time ago. I took a moving a shooting handgun course once, the instructor was excellent, a working Detective with lots of street cred (including shooting bad guys), and he never mentioned it. He did say however that no matter how a shooting works out in the long run, YOU are responsible for EVERY bullet the leaves the barrel, and advised AGAINST special double-tap and related drills. I used to practice the Mozambique drill, but stopped it because of his recommendation. I wouldn't want any "bad" muscle memory from taking over in an emergency. Perhaps a double edged sword, but he made sense to me given his lengthy experience in numerous LEO VICE units.
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I didn't see a poll response that fit my experience, so didn't vote.
Several years ago I took a Basic Holster class that included Defensive Indexed Shooting which, as far I can tell, is another term for Point Shooting. Maybe point shooting got a bad rep and some expert decided to to come up with a new name for it... or, maybe DIS is distinguished by different techniques along the same concept?? I dunno.
There was a classroom portion and a shooting portion to the class. Once on the range the instructor taped over the iron sights on each of the students' guns.
We were instructed on three different DIS positions; Point Position 1 (back of gun pressed into students' center of mass), Point Position 2 (elbows locked to student's sides), and Point Position 3 (students' arms extended almost fully).
Point Positions 1 & 2 were used on targets at 3 & 5 yards, while Point Position 3 was reserved for targets at 7 yards. The majority of our instruction was at 3 & 5 yards.
At the end of the class, students were required to qual with a passing score. All qual rounds were fired on a full sized Police Silouette target, and hits were required to be 9 ring or better. 10 rounds fired, mostly from Point Position 2, and the final 10 rounds were controlled pairs that had to be fired within 5 seconds.
About a third to half the students (maybe 6 or 7 students total in the class) failed to qual on the first try, I had a couple of rounds on my first qual land in the 8 ring... so the instructor just ran us through a quick 2nd qual and I believe we were all passed on the last attempt. I think he threw me a "gimme" on that one 8 ring hit, while grading my target.
Not my best shooting ever, but for my first time attempting to shoot without using sights, I guess I could've done worse.
I do occasionally include the Defensive Indexed Shooting techniques I learned in my training range time, although probably not enough.
I'd be interested in taking another DIS/ Point Shooting class at some point, mostly for comparison, just to see if the techniques are still taught (or considered valid) and to see if better results can be obtained.
|and this little pig said:|
In our semi-annual qualifications, we need to shoot from the hip and point shoot. For me, these are the easiest "points" to attain. The range is 3- 5 yds.
Does the Center Axis Relock System count?
I find that shooting thumbs forward out to 5 yards or so looking over the sights to be very effective and accurate for center of mass hits as fast as I can pull the trigger; you’re technically still using your sights, albeit not as intended.
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Just another reminder, in my mind we’re talking almost touching to a few yards. It’s not so much like Matt Dillon shooting the bad guy at 25 yards.
Another issue is the idea anyway of keeping the gun close to your center body, not extending out where someone could grab it. Heck, shooting from & through a jacket pocket is an option, S&W Model 649 Bidyguard of course.
If I recall correctly (suspect) some of our firearms training Police Academy (late 70's) involved point shooting. We were shooting dept issued S/W Model 67's and could be fairly accurate at close range.
|Imagination and focus |
Yes, although at full extension I believe you are using your sights.
Fist Fire can be effective as well.
I had interned with USMS back in college and they had me qual with them as they were switching to mandatory Glock. They taught point shooting, or at least target-focused shooting, or at least their training deputy did. They also taught getting the first shot off, even if not on target. The idea was whoever shot first put the other guy off their game, and maybe some splatter from hitting the ground would hurt them. Wasn’t sure I bought into the idea, but wasn’t my place to question.
Also had a tactical pistol class that spent some time on it. If I remember the drill, it was 15 paper plates at 7 yards. All numbered and lettered in random order. They’d call 3 and You shoot quick. Again, target focused was the idea, you needed to see the target to recognize the letter/number and just squeeze without refocusing on sights.
I think it’s more of a natural, repeatable motion that you recognize feels right. Maybe a flash sight picture. Ultimately, I think it’s a skill that develops out of familiarity.
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Point shooting was big back in the late 90s and early 2000s. Guys like Mike Conti, the Sig Academy (back then) and many municipal and State academies taught it. I bought into point shooting but when I needed it, it didn't work so well. That's just my experience. I prefer to use sights with the caveat that your sight picture isn't the same at 3yds as it is at 25yds. I also prefer one method of using the tool. Don't over complicate your training.
Follow up on point shooting. I think you'll notice that people practice point shooting under ideal circumstances, Full light, good footing, frontal plane (flat range), no one is moving... Whereas you don't see people using point shooting in low light with a flashlight, around corners or tight spaces, transverse or sagittal planes, with movement... You know, how things really go down.
You don't see people doing this on most ranges outside of formal classes, because insurance/liability.
So far this year I've used up 9900 #209 primers and every single round produced was for Point Shooting. Yeah, when you shoot at moving targets with a shotgun it's all Point Shooting and most shoot with both eyes open. In fact a good way to miss with a shotgun is to look to the barrel. BTW, this skill does carry over to handguns, Jerry Miculek shoots Skeet because it helps build his point shooting skills and because it's fun.
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