quote:

Find the dot, however, is the most common complaint about using an optical sight.

'fit it into my pocket' is my complaint.

I am still an old school irons guy. Grew up shooting bullseye, and saw the infancy of red dot pistols back in the 80’s- big bulky unreliable ate batteries.
We have come a long way and they are now viable.

Ther3 is definitely a learning curve for us old people so used to irons.

What I have witnessed is that younger shooters not firmly wedded to irons with years of experience take to them very quickly, as do older shooters of limited experience struggling with eyesight. I was training with a very nice lady new shooter I will call “ Betty bifocal” I could see her struggle with the sights moving her head around tilting it forward and back to get alignment with limited effect. The instructor handed her a red dot gun, and the difference was dramatic. At 10 yards she went from hitting the target ( the entire paper) only 75% of the time or less to 100% of shots in a six inch circle

They are not for everyone and just because you don’t use one doesn’t make you a fool, any more than using one makes you Annie Oakley instantly

I’ve used slide mounted “red dots” for close to 20 years now, I think. They went from questionably reliable to trustworthy enough for defensive purposes if the batteries are kept current. They definitely aid those of us with aging eyesight. They aid speed and accuracy enough for all the competitions to put handguns with them in a separate category. At short distances (bad breath to say 10 feet) they aren’t going to help and might slow you down if you are focusing on putting the dot on the target. I found the closer the mount is to the bore, the easier it is for me to index the dot. That may be because I did start on iron sights. If you are going to use a red dot for defense, try to get one with either a circle or chevron. Sunlight (or any sufficiently bright light) coming in the front of the red dot can at certain angles cause reflections that look a lot like the dot, but won’t look like a circle or chevron.

Downsides are batteries, not being as robust as irons, dot drifting, and footprints not being anywhere close to a standard. Oh, and price.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
I am still an old school irons guy. Grew up shooting bullseye, and saw the infancy of red dot pistols back in the 80’s- big bulky unreliable ate batteries.
We have come a long way and they are now viable.

Ther3 is definitely a learning curve for us old people so used to irons.

What I have witnessed is that younger shooters not firmly wedded to irons with years of experience take to them very quickly, as do older shooters of limited experience struggling with eyesight. I was training with a very nice lady new shooter I will call “ Betty bifocal” I could see her struggle with the sights moving her head around tilting it forward and back to get alignment with limited effect. The instructor handed her a red dot gun, and the difference was dramatic. At 10 yards she went from hitting the target ( the entire paper) only 75% of the time or less to 100% of shots in a six inch circle

They are not for everyone and just because you don’t use one doesn’t make you a fool, any more than using one makes you Annie Oakley instantly

Hi. I am like you, an old school irons guy as well as a hammer fired or DAO striker fired, and I do use slide mounted picatinny rail to mount either a Green Dot or a laser. From my lengthy experience and 70's age, I rely on the laser for the fastest target acquisition and the Iron as a backup.

Take a look at my EDC using two tones laser, Green and Red, with an accurate iron sight.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/...nKtZgw3d5HCy3hd2LMTZ

I use bore base and chamber base laser sighting to zero.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/...EbLarS6Z_gsbw_8H_253

I was convinced I needed optics. I think I do for very occasional steel plate competition. But, I learned that the "wrong" dot for my eyes is useless on a small EDC pistol. So, I went back to irons on that pistol. Sold the optics (pending payment). Next step is to compare the Sig sights with Trijicon HD sights on two similar pistols, to see if the Sig needs Trijicon HD.

One thing about optics...maybe two...EDC and open optic is a dust collector...and is noticeably harder to AIWB conceal for me. I also bump the optic even with OWB 4 oclock carry, on doors, or pews, or whatever seems to be in my way. So, I'm always worried about dinging the optic. Another vote for irons, I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
I was convinced I needed optics. I think I do for very occasional steel plate competition. But, I learned that the "wrong" dot for my eyes is useless on a small EDC pistol. So, I went back to irons on that pistol. Sold the optics (pending payment). Next step is to compare the Sig sights with Trijicon HD sights on two similar pistols, to see if the Sig needs Trijicon HD.

One thing about optics...maybe two...EDC and open optic is a dust collector...and is noticeably harder to AIWB conceal for me. I also bump the optic even with OWB 4 oclock carry, on doors, or pews, or whatever seems to be in my way. So, I'm always worried about dinging the optic. Another vote for irons, I suppose.

I agree with you that the Green/Red dot are dust collector unless you attach and use their rubber cap and are only beneficial for slow target acquisition.

I use VersaCarry Commander-pro OWB holster 3 o'clock position for my EDC and a spare mag, of which it has been working fine for me for many years.

I’ve got two pistols with optics on them, and there’s no doubt that they can be faster and more accurate than conventional sights. I’m still not sold on their usefulness for a cc gun. In a violent encounter that’s up close and personal I may not even see the sights at all.

quote:

Originally posted by sigspecops:
I’ve got two pistols with optics on them, and there’s no doubt that they can be faster and more accurate than conventional sights. I’m still not sold on their usefulness for a cc gun. In a violent encounter that’s up close and personal I may not even see the sights at all.

Hi. I agree with you. Non-LE folks like us, do not need such. If, after adequate range training, we cannot hit a target posing imminent harm using point and shoot, then it is useless.

I zero my EDC dove tail based slide mounted laser at 12 yards, just in case.

I'm coming in from the LE side but I carried before and will after. I think it comes down to practice and drills, as has already been pointed out, I believe.

I agree that finding the dot is the primary thing I hear when people say they dont want one. Thats practice and presentation which cleans up after some work but it is also beneficial to irons as I find that after time with a dot my presentation is clean to the point where my irons are perfectly aligned coming out of the holster anyways. If not then you can always suck it in until you see the dot and then push back out which is quicker than the wrist wiggle everyone does.

I recently did a class where we were occluded (tape over the front lens)for almost the entire class, and it worked really well for being target-focused through the dot instead of looking at the dot. At the end, most of us actually stated we kind of wanted to put the tape back on.

Pocket carry will be a challenge but thats not new. Maybe pocket or minimalist carry in cargos? I also dont think every single gun needs a dot but I think there is an advantage.

We always think about defense as the mugger with a knife in the parking lot at 7 yds but look at todays world and consider who we are defending. Whats your distance in a fight where your target may be far away? If you go clear your trunk out while your spouse or kid are in walmart or best buy getting a tv and hear shots from inside you arent going to be at 7 yards when you go back in the store to get your loved one. If you split up at a mall and something similar happens you are looking at a rifle shot for some of those distances. Same thing at a school if you've been inside one of those. If the shooter or stabber happens to be close then you can either go kinesthetic or use the optic body edge. I dont think you'll find yourself in a very different situation than irons in this case.

When I'm not on the clock, similar to non-LE I'm definitely not looking to get into something but the threat may not be on me and while there are scenarios that I may let just play out i.e. gang on gang nonsense or robbery with alot of generic waving with no pointing, I'm going after an actual shooter. If your family or friends are in there I think you'd do the same so I think its best to hedge your bets.

My purpose in starting this thread was to discuss the use of optical sights on handguns for nonprofessional defensive purposes, so I appreciate the recent replies offering opinions about that topic.

Do optical sights with their small, clear (for most people) reticles make more precise aiming and therefore more precise shooting at longer distances possible? Obviously.

At one time I had a 4 power telescopic sight mounted on an S&W model 41 22 Long Rifle target pistol. That was before the days of red dot sights and did it permit very precise aiming and accuracy? Obviously. But if I wanted even greater precision with a handgun, why not something like a 1-10× LPVO or even a 5-25× variable? Now of course, people will say I’m just being silly, but my point is that accuracy and speed aren’t just either one or the other issues when considering self-defense situations. Many Internet videos showing the defensive use of handguns demonstrate two things: They usually occur at very close distances and the action is very fast. The reasons for both characteristics are also obvious.

Except for the extremely rare incidents like the Greenwood Park mall event in which the good guys’ involvements are essentially a matter of optional choice, self-defense shoots are usually forced on the defenders and that’s because they occur at very close distances in situations when the defenders cannot realistically disengage. And then when the shooting starts, virtually everyone fires their guns as fast as they can pull the triggers; it’s critical that we neutralize the bad guy before he neutralizes us, not to mention that that’s how most people react in high stress situations.

Yes, we still need to get hits unless it’s in the large percentage of incidents in which the BG turns and runs away as fast as possible as soon as he’s faced with an effective response: i.e., being shot at himself. To reiterate, we can’t miss fast enough to win, but we can certainly shoot slowly enough to lose. If we’re trying to put all our shots into a 6 inch circle at 15 yards, we’re probably going to lose if we’re actually in the unlikely defensive situation of exchanging gunshots with an attacker.

There may be highly-practiced and -skilled shooters who are absolutely as fast while using the precise reticle of an optic at 7 yards and closer as other skilled shooters are while using approximately-sighted or unsighted fire and no optic, but I would bet even two nickels that they are very rare. If, on the other hand, you anticipate that it is most likely you will need to engage a BG at much longer distances than where the vast majority of such incidents in fact occur, then I agree: be as precise as possible.

I’m not trying to discourage other discussion, but I am interested in the opinions that refer to the original topic of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear:
Sunlight (or any sufficiently bright light) coming in the front of the red dot can at certain angles cause reflections that look a lot like the dot ....

This is another of those things that other RDS users must have encountered but may have avoided mentioning lest it undermine their promotion of the sights.

The phenomenon is evidently rare and can occur only under certain lighting conditions, but I recently learned about it myself from a friend. His wife was shooting his P320 with SIG optic and although she was putting her shots into a nice tight group, they weren’t anywhere close to her point of aim: something like 18 or more inches off. The reason was because another red dot that she was using for sighting was visible through the sight, and it wasn’t the actual reticle.

When my friend showed it to me and I got the ghost dot to show up, it wasn’t quite as sharp and distinct as the actual reticle, but it was pretty close and I doubt I would notice the difference in a high stress situation. Further, now that I’m aware of the possible phenomenon, what would I think if I were shooting and my shots didn’t seem to have the effects I expected and hoped for? Would I start trying to determine if I was using the proper red dot for aiming?

More interesting stuff we learn about.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Nuclear:
Sunlight (or any sufficiently bright light) coming in the front of the red dot can at certain angles cause reflections that look a lot like the dot ....

This is another of those things that other RDS users must have encountered but may have avoided mentioning lest it undermine their promotion of the sights.

The phenomenon is evidently rare and can occur only under certain lighting conditions, but I recently learned about it myself from a friend. His wife was shooting his P320 with SIG optic and although she was putting her shots into a nice tight group, they weren’t anywhere close to her point of aim: something like 18 or more inches off. The reason was because another red dot that she was using for sighting was visible through the sight, and it wasn’t the actual reticle.

When my friend showed it to me and I got the ghost dot to show up, it wasn’t quite as sharp and distinct as the actual reticle, but it was pretty close and I doubt I would notice the difference in a high stress situation. Further, now that I’m aware of the possible phenomenon, what would I think if I were shooting and my shots didn’t seem to have the effects I expected and hoped for? Would I start trying to determine if I was using the proper red dot for aiming?

More interesting stuff we learn about.

There is something to say about the massive investment expenditure in an optic ready handgun and an RDS/GDS device, and in such, folks may not come out and express any embarrassing regret about its limitation etc...

My investment was extremely low in getting Dove Tail based RMR mounts and RMR to Picatinny plates for all my non-optic ready firearms which gave me the choice for an RDS/GDs or laser, and the dual-color laser/Iron wins.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Further, now that I’m aware of the possible phenomenon, what would I think if I were shooting and my shots didn’t seem to have the effects I expected and hoped for? Would I start trying to determine if I was using the proper red dot.

Likely because it’s a square range issue, and largely a shooter induced issue. That being said, it’s a non-issue.

First off, tell your friends wife to stop shooting dot focused. Without even being there I can tell you that. Because if you are target focused, you can tell in your periphery that you have contorted the gun way out to hit 18 inches off the mark. Instead, she was sucked into the tube and had dot worry, instead of focusing on what she should have been focusing on.


Secondly, did the iron sights still work?

Lastly, this is a square range issue, well, because I have never been in a gunfight where I stood still or the bad guy stood still. A step left or right corrects this “phenomenon”. Because actual gunfights have movement, it corrects itself.

That is likely when those who by your words “avoid mentioning it”. It’s the difference between the theoretical and experience.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
First off, tell your friends wife to stop shooting dot focused.

Thanks. One more thing to add to the “If only …” list for using a certain optical sight on a handgun. At what point does it stop being a list and become a book?

Good point, though. The next time I have a chance to see my friend’s pistol and sight I will try to determine whether target focus will eliminate the problem.

And to reiterate, although “target focus” is evidently the latest thing firearms instructors have discovered and need to start teaching all of a sudden, there’s no reason why shooters should not be doing that with any type of sight. As I tell my students, if someone is shooting at them, they will almost certainly be paying more attention to the shooter than to their sights—and as they should for more reasons that just delivering accurate return fire. At some point, though, it becomes necessary to be aware of the sight or reticle during the aiming process. Otherwise it’s sort of like the famous “Did you see the gorilla?” awareness test. (I did, BTW, and when shooting I am aware of both the target and the sight(s)—just as is required at some point.)