I had a XDm 9mm that I really liked full size 4.5 barrel. I shot very well with it. As good as with my 1911. But I saw the P320 M1-17 and thought I needed one. So when I got it I told my son I'd let him have the XDm. I started out just shooting 115gr because that was what I had. To the left about four inches at 15 yards. WTF. So I got 124gr and 147gr but no difference. All about four inches to the left. I talked to Sig and they told me I could send it in to them but if it shot in specs I'd have to pay. Well in the mean time I bought an P365XL and Sig 124gr ammo. I shot the 365 just like I shot the XDm but I was still shooting left with the 320. So I sent it in to Sig. They called and told me it was in spec, 5 rounds inside a 3 inch square at 10 yards. Even sent me the target they used, four dead center one flyer but still inside the 3 inch square. So my question is WHAT am I doing wrong? Is it the way I'm holding the pistol? My finger placement? the way I sight it? I thought it was because I had the medium grip so I bought the small grip to better fit my short fat hand but I've still got the problem. I'll take any help or criticism constructive or otherwise.

First, welcome to SIGforum. You will never find a place like this anywhere on the intarweb. It is truly a family.

I would look at the fundamentals first. Are you using the thumbs forward approach? Is your weak hand thumb on the frame when you shoot? Is your grip of your weak hand stronger than the strong hand, or is it the other way around?

If you are successful with other platforms, I would guess you are sighting correctly. Maybe your grip style just doesn't work as well with the P320.

I'm sure others will have more constructive advice than me.

H&K-Guy

Let other people shoot your P320 from a rested position. See if they reproduce similar results to yours. Fire it from a clamp if you have the resources.

It's not the gun.

Are you right handed, and your shots are going left?

Have you tried shooting with your left hand? The problem you're seeing will not reoccur; this will demonstrate that it's what you're doing when the shot breaks.

Have you spent some time dry firing with the pistol? How about training?

115 grain vs. 124 grain vs. 147 grain won't make any difference, and isn't the cause of what you're seeing.

Are the shots grouping, just four inches left? Again, not the pistol. Unless you've got some seriously misaligned sights (front and rear should be in the center of the slide), you're tensing your shooting hand as you fire and probably your wrist, and applying just enough pressure to move your shots left.

Are you using a thumbs-forward grip, both thumbs pointing at the target, when you shoot two-handed?

Dry fire with the front sight on a target, until the front sight doesn't move. Then fire a shot. Dry fire ten more times, then fire a shot. Repeat several more times, and intersperse five dry fires with two, then three shots. See if there's a change.

As someone else noted, have another person fire your weapon.

Don't bother sending it back to Sig. Focus on troubleshooting your grip, and possibly your trigger press, and you'll almost certainly find that this issue goes away.

It's not rocket science. If your shooting left, move the rear sight to the right until it shoots center. That's it.

quote:

Originally posted by Delta-3:
It's not rocket science. If your shooting left, move the rear sight to the right until it shoots center. That's it.

Eh, depends why it’s shooting left. If it’s the gun, sure.

If it’s the shooter... fix the shooter:




Switching the gun to your left hand, or letting others shoot it, should tell you which it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Delta-3:
It's not rocket science. If your shooting left, move the rear sight to the right until it shoots center. That's it.

No, that's not "it".

a flinch maybe ?

Whenever we get these kind of posts, I'm always a group size advocate. If you can produce a group (not a shotgun pattern) repeatably at 15y that's in the range of let's say 2" for a pretty decent number of rounds like a 5-10, slow fire no pressure then have at it and adjust the sights. If you can't then its all on you...

quote:

Originally posted by daveinbucksco:
a flinch maybe ?

A flinch would do it, but probably not consistently hitting the exact same place every shot out to 15.

I wish he could post a pic of his targets. That would give us a better diagnosis. But pics might be hard to post on his first day here.

H&K-Guy

It has to be your grip or your finger placement.
The small grip module was a good move, for your hand type, sounds like.

As mentioned above, BENCH THE GUN.
1) Comfortable bench and chair
2) Sand bags
3) Get nested in and slooowly squeeze them off letting the pistol's report surprise you

I'm betting that you will see something like this :
Top target is a P320 from today at 50 feet


ETA
Don't give up and drift your sight.
Instead, figure it out and get it right.
Hey, that rhymes !

A lot of very good info. First I had already sent it back to Sig and it's not the gun. I've got the target they shot at all five shoots inside a three inch square at 10 yards. That was a $55 lesson I won't forget. It is something I'm doing wrong and with all the info you have provided I will try to correct it. But to answer a few questions. I shoot one handed always have always will. Grouping isn't bad at 15 yards well with in a 10in plate, but just off to the left 4 inches, that's free standing no support. What bothers me is I didn't have this problem with the XDm or my Remington 1911 (nor the Tarsus 1911 I had before) nor the P365XL. So it bothers me that I have with this pistol but with the information you all have provided I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it. Thanks so much great forum.
'
Rex

quote:

Originally posted by Delta-3:
It's not rocket science. If your shooting left, move the rear sight to the right until it shoots center. That's it.

That's a bandaid, not a fix. Doing that will prevent fixing.

The problem needs to be fixed.

quote:

Originally posted by oncewas:
A lot of very good info. First I had already sent it back to Sig and it's not the gun. I've got the target they shot at all five shoots inside a three inch square at 10 yards. That was a $55 lesson I won't forget. It is something I'm doing wrong and with all the info you have provided I will try to correct it. But to answer a few questions. I shoot one handed always have always will. Grouping isn't bad at 15 yards well with in a 10in plate, but just off to the left 4 inches, that's free standing no support. What bothers me is I didn't have this problem with the XDm or my Remington 1911 (nor the Tarsus 1911 I had before) nor the P365XL. So it bothers me that I have with this pistol but with the information you all have provided I'm sure I'll get to the bottom of it. Thanks so much great forum.
'
Rex

Rex, before you focus on only shooting with one hand, focus on learning to shoot the pistol well; shooting with one hand is a skill, but one subset of many. It will also prevent you, for the time being, from addressing the problem.

What you did with other pistols doesn't matter much. The 1911 has a habit of hiding bad habits, thanks to the trigger. The XDM had you gripping a little differently, in part due to the grip safety (common to both the 1911 and XDM).

Approach your shot in stages. Place both hands on the firearm, and ensure that the pistol is seated as deep into the web of your shooting hand as you can get it. Apply pressure to the backstrap and front strap (front and rear of the grip); pinch them toward one another, rather than squeezing the entire pistol in your hand. Place the second knuckles of your support hand over the second knuckles of your shooting hand, and press the heels of both hands together; this applies the pressure to the sides of the grip. Place your shooting hand thumb atop the support hand thumb, with both pointing at the target. Squeeze just enough that your hand trembles slightly, then relax just enough to stop the trembling. Press the front sight toward the target, driving it with the heels of both hands.

With your trigger finger, take up any slack in the trigger and depress it until it almost breaks, but not quite. Breathing out, press the rest of the way, wile focusing on the front sight. Look for it to jump straight up , then drop back down to where it was.

Do this dry firing, with nothing in the chamber, but allowing the pistol to click. There should be no motion. Do this again and again, eventually substituting a live round. Fire one shot. see where it goes. Go back to dry firing.

When you're able, have someone else load the pistol; they may load it with a live round, or they may cock it with a magazine, but nothing in the chamber. You should have the same press, the same follow-through, the same drive of the gun into the target; if you hit a dry fire when you're expecting a live round, and the front sight dips or moves or drifts left, there's your culprit, and there's what you need to untrain or work out of your shooting.

Do that two-handed until your groups hit the bullseye and still group...then work on one hand shooting with the support hand, and strong hand. Include a LOT of dry fire in there, and do dry fire with the pistol every day.

If the pistol is making a tight group right now, just four inches left of your aim point, then the pistol is capable, but you're pushing the shots over there each time. Your shooting is good; you just need to remove the tensing of your hand, or wrist, or trigger finger, or shot anticipation.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/hpNtZsX.jpg"> [/IMG]

If you can, try a P320 Full Size (like your M17) with a Wilson Combat grip module.
I know, long shot but it could happen.
Some shooters report that they get better hand fitment with the Wilson Combat grip module.

Sorry guess I can't post pics yet.

quote:

Grouping isn't bad at 15 yards well with in a 10in plate

A 10" or so group at 15y is not something that is related in any way to the gun. Work till you can address that. I have no clue on shooting one handed that left the planet awhile ago for most.

oh okay maybe I can. But as you can see this is at seven yards.