Maybe a stupid question, but doesn't the aggregate in a lapping compound have to be harder than the material being polished?

If so, grease, in most cases, would trap maybe lead, brass, and spent powder, all of which are softer than the metals in the gun.

As Jimmy mentions, it would require the addition of another material such as sand to create a real abrasive, which most people aren't going to have in their grease, or at least not for a high number of rounds.

For all of that, it would seem oil would also trap the same materials so would not be any different than grease.

quote:

Originally posted by anothercuervo:
Maybe a stupid question, but doesn't the aggregate in a lapping compound have to be harder than the material being polished?

If so, grease, in most cases, would trap maybe lead, brass, and spent powder, all of which are softer than the metals in the gun.

As Jimmy mentions, it would require the addition of another material such as sand to create a real abrasive, which most people aren't going to have in their grease, or at least not for a high number of rounds.

For all of that, it would seem oil would also trap the same materials so would not be any different than grease.

Don't try using logic! I said as much a few posts in, but that hasn't stopped the thread from going to 3 pages.

It would take a considerable about of suspended fouling to get into that lubricant, whether grease or oil. Likely such a 'tight' gun will begin choking and stopping before even a remote chance of 'lapping' could occur. And then the remedial action is to...clean the gun. So once that happens then we can justifiably say, what carbon fouling? Non issue.

However to say it must take a 'harder' media than the base metal to in order to lap or polish the surface of said metal is not true. It also depends upon the amount of force being applied. For instance, water can be used to polish if used through a high pressure jet. Hell, it can CUT through that same metal without a second thought if the power behind it is enough.

Then consider the effectiveness of stropping materials on a steel knife blade. Cardboard and even plain paper can turn the edge of the toughest blade steel into a blunted apex incapable of cutting much of anything. Leather, denim, even balsa wood can be used to polish and bring an edge back. All of these are materials that are technically 'softer' than the steel that it's being used on. Yet they each can affect the finish of that steel. So I'd say that it's not out of the realm of possibility that heavy fouling could affect the surfaces of a gun if repeatedly ground against the contact surfaces if given enough cycles. But then comes the Catch-22 moment; if the gun's that tight...well, I already said it in the paragraph above already.

Grant Cunningham on the subject.

http://www.grantcunningham.com.../05/lubrication-101/

It seems like 80% of gun owners and 100% of gun shop commandos have a pet theory about lubrication and lubricants.

Here is mine. I use whatever grease I got a free sample of at the last gun show on the rails, hinge pins, cranes, etc. I use whatever oil I got a free sample of on action parts. Except when I use some grease for that, too. I prefer grease for most purposes as it stays put longer.

All my guns work fine. No lapping, no galling, no seizing.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:


Your "gunsmith" is an idiot.

My gunsmith is a verified Mensa society member whose body of work earned him a 10 year wait list. Or at least I waited 10 years. He speaks of 5 surface contact area between slides and his TIG welded frames and strongly suggests oil. Not because of lapping but because grease slows the slide. He says you'd feel it; I didn't try, didn't see a point. Gun feels like a monolithic structure when it fires, as if nothing is moving. It cycles, and gets back on target better than anything I ever shot. Slide literally slides in, I presume this what's called a ball bearing feel. Not a target gun either; his pistols have been carried by LEOs and civilians alike. Personally I use anything that comes handy to lube my guns, oil, grease, mix thereof etc. I have used sunscreen when I put it into my range bag by a mistake; my rendition of late Pat Rogers' Vagisil on an AR bolt demo. But those two 1911s that were built by that man get oil.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: YVK,

What I can tell you from personal experience with two custom built target pistols is even a light grease can be too heavy for a tightly fitted pistol. One is a 1911, and the other is a Beretta 92.

I don't buy into the lapping compound theory. I've never seen pistol rails get dirty enough to even begin to be an issue in terms of reliability.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SgtGold,

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:


My gunsmith is a verified Mensa society member

Yippee. He can do puzzles.

If he happens to suggest that grease on the rail is a lapping compound," then he's lacking in some very basic understanding of metallurgy, mechanics, and engineering.

His Mensa status is a straw man.

No, it is not. It is an example of somebody who a) is proven to be opposite to an idiot from a general intellect sense and b) has achieved more than most in gun building recommending oil over grease for his specific reasons. That have nothing to do with lapping, as I pointed out quite clearly in my first post.

Guys.

I'm sure it's not really important whether someone is a Mensa member, or how large their backlog. What they recommend be done with their guns must be for.. reasons.

Just because it's not the same as what the general concensus is, doesn't mean it's worth arguing. Or, at least get off of whether or not someone is a moron.

I use white lithium grease on high end pistols that most would consider very tight. It works. I wager oil would work too, until it got hot enough to flow away from where it was needed.

Grease, and even kinda dirty grease, isn't a lapping compound. I think we've established that.

Also, it's OK to name a gunsmith, particularly if they're an excellent one.

Ned Christiansen, http://www.m-guns.com/

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

Slide literally slides in, I presume this what's called a ball bearing feel.

Guess what ball bearings are packed in with to ensure that feeling? I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "gre" and ends with "ase". And rhymes with "geese".



ETA: in case you're not Mensa too, the answer is grease.

So, what did we decide?

Grease is like lard. Lard is a byproduct of pig. Bacon comes from pig. Therefore, grease is a necessary component of the rendering of bacon, and bacon is best when the inclusion into cuisine results in lapping of the components integrated within the consummated parts, therein, and such as...

According to a self proclaimed expert in the fine art of Pigsmithing.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

Slide literally slides in, I presume this what's called a ball bearing feel.

Guess what ball bearings are packed in with to ensure that feeling? I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "gre" and ends with "ase". And rhymes with "geese".



ETA: in case you're not Mensa too, the answer is grease.

Did not know that, thank you.

Indeed not a Mensa, so you need to help me: all those ball bearing oils that internet speaks of, stuff like that https://www.bearingtips.com/oil-used-bearings/ [totally dig editor's name] they do not provide that ball bearing feeling?

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
Grant Cunningham on the subject.

http://www.grantcunningham.com.../05/lubrication-101/

Thank you for this! I've been messing with guns for several decades and this gentleman's logic/expertise is the best I've come across on this subject.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

Slide literally slides in, I presume this what's called a ball bearing feel.

Guess what ball bearings are packed in with to ensure that feeling? I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "gre" and ends with "ase". And rhymes with "geese".



ETA: in case you're not Mensa too, the answer is grease.

Did not know that, thank you.

Indeed not a Mensa, so you need to help me: all those ball bearing oils that internet speaks of, stuff like that https://www.bearingtips.com/oil-used-bearings/ [totally dig editor's name] they do not provide that ball bearing feeling?

No one is saying oil isn't a proper lubricant. However, some are apparently trying to say grease isn't. Which is silly. If grease just turns into lapping compound, it wouldn't be used in applications such as lubrication of ball bearings.

Look, if you don't want to use grease, then don't. I'm sure your guns will be just fine. I use grease not because I think it's superior to oil; frankly I used only oil for a long time. But when I started carrying daily, I wanted lubrication that was less likely to migrate, specifically to my clothing.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
So, what did we decide?

It was a dark and stormy night. Suddenly, a shot rang out! A door slammed. The maid screamed.

quote:

Originally posted by elde:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
Grant Cunningham on the subject.

http://www.grantcunningham.com.../05/lubrication-101/

Thank you for this! I've been messing with guns for several decades and this gentleman's logic/expertise is the best I've come across on this subject.

I also appreciated the article. It confirmed - or at least agreed - with most of my beliefs on the subject. My favorite line was,

"with a very few obvious exceptions, firearms lubrication isn’t terribly difficult. Compared to many more common objects, guns just don’t make big demands of their lubricants!"

We're not dealing with things that cycle or rotate several thousand times per minute or operate at 1000 deg. Many of the advertised benefits of some expensive lubes aren't realistically appreciable unless you're the type who goes 10K rds between lubrication. As others have already stated, lapping is one of those things.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

quote:

Originally posted by elde:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
Grant Cunningham on the subject.

http://www.grantcunningham.com.../05/lubrication-101/

Thank you for this! I've been messing with guns for several decades and this gentleman's logic/expertise is the best I've come across on this subject.

I also appreciated the article. It confirmed - or at least agreed - with most of my beliefs on the subject. My favorite line was,

"with a very few obvious exceptions, firearms lubrication isn’t terribly difficult. Compared to many more common objects, guns just don’t make big demands of their lubricants!"

We're not dealing with things that cycle or rotate several thousand times per minute or operate at 1000 deg.

I guess you haven't put 50 rounds through an HK P7!!!!!!!!! It sure feels like they get 1000F hehehehehee