quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
Follow up

My M4 armorer course was taught by a cool SOCOM guy. I learned how to properly lube the rifle and that spotless cleaning wasn't required. Right after the course I purchased an M&P Sport ar15 and ran it HARD for a year without cleaning it but I lubed it and had zero malfunctions.

Didn’t Pat Rogers have two rifles that had like 35k each on them without being cleaned before he died? Or did I dream that?

I read through this whole thread and now feel better. I thought I was the only one who didn't clean his guns after every range trip.

I once read a comment from a US military armorer that the rifles get as much wear (mostly the bores) from over-cleaning as they do from shooting, since so many servicemen are taught to clean obsessively.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:


Didn’t Pat Rogers have two rifles that had like 35k each on them without being cleaned before he died? Or did I dream that?

Filthy 14. A BCM 16 inch midlength that went something like 40000+ rounds. Cleaned once at 25000 or something like that. I believe he did have a bolt failure relatively early. I handled that carbine when I shot with Pat. It was dirty.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
Follow up

My M4 armorer course was taught by a cool SOCOM guy. I learned how to properly lube the rifle and that spotless cleaning wasn't required. Right after the course I purchased an M&P Sport ar15 and ran it HARD for a year without cleaning it but I lubed it and had zero malfunctions.

Didn’t Pat Rogers have two rifles that had like 35k each on them without being cleaned before he died? Or did I dream that?

You didn't dream that, As mentioned above the rifle was one of his course rifles, rack number 14. He wrote an article about it in SWAT magazine and BCM used to enclose it with purchase. While he did not clean the rifle, he did lubricate regularly. Pat also made it clear that he no longer carried a gun for a living and that he did not advocate not cleaning duty weapons.

Article Link

I took training with EAG prior to Pat's death and occasional corresponded with him. Both Pat and his TAs were big on lubricating and inspecting. Pat did express a dislike for excessive cleaning or some of the more destructive and asinine cleaning practices often exhibited by military folks (The infamous White Glove inspections).

I also think that "not cleaning" got exaggerated into the Tacticool realm like "Scan and Asses". There is/was a reason but folks started parroting it without fully understanding it until it turns into a parody.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: CD228,

quote:

When I was a boy a local sheriffs auxiliary deputy was killed during a break in at his home. He reached for his revolver which had been stuffed into his holster for God knows how long and the firearm was seized with rust. Bad guy had all the time in the world to shoot him. Guy would have benefited from someone telling/making him clean his sidearm on a schedule.

I bought a Delta Elite from a local gunstore that had been stored in a holster for ages. The top of the slide had rust pitting, which I knew about.

Saw a deputy in a gunstore where I was working part-time, sounds like the guy you describe. Sidarm was a nice (make that ex-nice) Smith and & Wesson revolver that had probably not seen the light of day for a decade. It was very sad. I doubt he would be able to depend on it.

Had a friend who bought a revolver when he was 21, shot it some, stored it in a holster and, at the time we talked, he didn't even know where it was. He finally found it after I prodded him over and over. Gun was not in great shape, but not awful either. I cleaned it, lubed it and gave it back to him without the holster.

I think there is a difference between meticulously cleaning every gun you own every time you run even a few rounds through it or take it to the range, and neglect, serious neglect.

Not cleaning a gun or maintaining it to the point of neglect and a failure to function for it's intended purpose is a whole other matter. Although I know the OP mentioned not cleaning until the gun fails to perform as expected.

I don't think I have ever gone that far and certainly not anywhere within a light year of neglect. And, just like oil in a car engine, lube is of the most importance.

I've gone from meticulously cleaning every gun I took to the range after every range trip even if I ran only a mag through it, to cleaning every several times I go to the range, probably after a couple hundred rounds.

I wouldn't go into competition with a dirty gun, although it's going to get dirty during competition and you're not going to be able to clean it. I also wouldn't carry a gun as a professional without it being clean. My own self defense guns would not see more than 50 rounds without being cleaned. Range guns are a different story.

There is no hard and fast rule for me, or for anyone, I think. It's what you comfortable with within the boundaries of knowing a good firearm will perform when dirty.... up to to a point.

I also don't clean every time after shooting...
but I go out of town once or twice a year for shooting classes that last several days and usually room with a good friend who is a retired Marine gunnery sergeant.... damn guy requires we clean our pistols when we get back to the room before we can go out to eat.

Oh, and I have a Ruger MKIII that I cleaned about 5 or 8,000 rounds ago.

I have a Sig 522 I purchased 12 years ago.
It has NEVER been cleaned or even disassembled. I am guessing 15-20k rounds. Nothing more than a cheap .22 issue failure and a few failures caused by the old Black Dog Machine mags before they redesigned the followers.

My carry guns and defense rifles are the only ones that get cleaned regularly.

Funny. I stopped cleaning my shooters regularly years ago after talking with a range officer about the rental guns on the wall behind him. I learned that with modern powders corrosion was not a concern and that they run their guns thousands and thousands of rounds without cleaning. Sometimes they squirt a little lube in there but that's it. Right then I stopped the cleaning fetish. I occasionally lube my shooters but only clean them once a year. It's been twenty years since then and none of my guns show any sign of corrosion.

Yup! I have an old Ruger Mark II that I think I've cleaned only 2-3 times in 25+ years because it's a bitch to reassemble.

Other stuff gets cleaned every few range sessions and lubed.

I was taught once to clean your carry guns after several hundred rounds, but then shoot a round or two through it to foul it so you'd know it will work on that next round, which might be the one that saves you. The problem with that is, I clean my guns at home (no gun cleaning allowed at local range), so I can't fire a fouling shot right after cleaning. Yet another reason I need to buy some land and move...

quote:

Originally posted by SigFan:
I was taught once to clean your carry guns after several hundred rounds, but then shoot a round or two through it to foul it so you'd know it will work on that next round, which might be the one that saves you.

Once upon a time, I thought I'd heard everything. That was long ago, as people seem to keep coming up with strange rituals about what one is supposed to do.

If you clean it, to immediately foul it, to see if it will work... what? Especially the "next round" portion of that statement... What about the next, next round? Whoever came up with that did some mental pretzelworks to get there.

Sounds like that odd ritual might be a corruption of the concept of "fouling shots" by precision rifle shooters. Some rifle barrels can shoot slightly differently when squeaky clean, compared to after the barrel has been "fouled" by shooting a couple rounds through it.

That's not a concern with handguns, though. Whoever translated the idea to handguns had to do some extra intellectual gymnastics to come up with a good-sounding (in their mind) reason to justify doing it with handguns too.

Function checks after reassembly as all that's necessary.

I clean after ever use period. The only time I see not cleaning the same day would be in battle field.

Do people who don't clean their guns regularly only own TAURUS, ROSSI and KELTEC?

It's perfectly acceptable then...

Regular inspection/inventory and lubrication >> obsessive cleaning after each range session.

But I can see how telling people to regularly clean their guns forces them to basically perform the I&I and lubrication when they otherwise wouldn't do so.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Agreed, Arc.

When threads pop up about gun cleaning, you always have a few dudes that when asked "how often do you clean your guns" they reply, "Only when I want them to work". Over several really high round count guns, my primary shooters in particular, they get cleaned, when they get cleaned. I am far more worried about the gun being properly lubed than I am clean. I used to be the guy that obsessed about keeping a clean, lubed gun with a minty clean bore. My carry guns these days get bore snaked every so often, and get the bore punched with a brush after I start noticing a drop in accuracy.

What you describe is spot on with what I think. The modern service type pistol just doesn't care.

It's like I don't even know you anymore...
Did you hear that small explosion? That was the blood vessel on the side of your Drill Instructors head bursting! Chesty Puller is rolling over in his grave right now!
A PMI holding a kitten just died because you said that.

Went to clean gun last night for today's match. Fiancée was cleaning hers and her carry gun. So decided if she's cleaning two I should clean another one so we can do it together. Go and grab my M11-A1. Spotless. OK, reload it and grabbed my AR. Apparently I had already cleaned my rifle. Everything I picked up spotless clean. Guess I have a problem....

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:


If you clean it, to immediately foul it, to see if it will work... what?

The idea is not to foul it but to live fire and prove it is functional after cleaning / disassembly. People have put guns together incorrectly after taking them apart.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:


If you clean it, to immediately foul it, to see if it will work... what?

The idea is not to foul it but to live fire and prove it is functional after cleaning / disassembly. People have put guns together incorrectly after taking them apart.

I understand that. "...what?" is an expression of "this is silly," not "I don't understand."

The idea itself is rather ridiculous, if you think about all the weapons being reassembled in homes as well as even police and military installations, exactly how many are testfired after a cleaning?

How many guns has anyone here put back together incorrectly?

After reassembly, I'm sure we all do a function check. You can even use a snap cap. But live ammo? Beyond it being unnecessary to do, a whole lot of folks don't even have the luxury.

Throwing salt over your shoulder is for luck, and so is firing live ammo after you've put the gun back together. Both equally nonsensical and superstitious. Along with a lot of other unnecessary picayune gun owners learn from others.

I find this thread offensive. My OCD feels threatened and uncomfortable. If anyone needs me, I’ll be in the cry room.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
This was going to be all controversial, and you've ruined it. I hope you're happy.

I clean my gun because it is an extension of my hand and I keep my hands clean. I keep my guns like my life, clean and in good working order. You can keep yours dirty but my momma raised me right.