Or Chewbacca masks.

This whole thread!

IT'S A TRAP!! - Admiral Akbar

It’s ok mine isn’t movie grade

I've noticed a trend on the "high speed low drag cool guy forums". Its like a badge of honor to run around with a super dirty gun. Like look at me, I train a lot and shit, and my shit works, only NEWB's clean guns, AMIRITE boys? (Gets padded on the back and nods of reassurance from the group think hive)

Sure, training or competition guns that you will never use for defensive purposes, get them dirty and dont clean them. BUT your defensive gun that you use to defend your life, the life of your squad mates (if a cop or soldier), or the life of your family, had BETTER be spotlessly clean and perfectly lubricated. If not you are not operating operationally, and in fact, are a negligent dumb-ass.

And this includes your magazines. Your primary defensive magazines should absolutely be dissembled, cleaned, and springs checked/replaced regularly. I just dissembled/cleaned a magazine that I received with a used gun yesterday, and it had rust, sand, and a bunch of unburned gun powder inside. It was disgusting.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bubbatime,

quote:

Maintenance and cleaning aren't the same.

and...

quote:

Sure, training or competition guns that you will never use for defensive purposes, get them dirty and dont clean them. BUT your defensive gun that you use to defend your life, the life of your squad mates (if a cop or soldier), or the life of your family, had BETTER be spotlessly clean and perfectly lubricated. If not you are not operating operationally, and in fact, are a negligent dumb-ass.

I believe the reason the mantra of keeping firearms super clean became commonplace is twofold:

1)Teaching is often geared toward the lowest common denominator. The phrase is usually "clean and inspect". Hard to inspect without cleaning. Military/duty firearms are generally designed to handle a certain amount of grime and I think regular cleaning regimens are geared more toward maintenance than grime.

2)Non-military/non-duty type firearms are often manufactured with tighter tolerances and grime tends to have a more adverse effect. They just need cleaning more often, but still less than many believe.

It's just easier to tell folks to clean and inspect it on a schedule than to expect them to use common sense.

When I was a boy a local sheriffs auxiliary deputy was killed during a break in at his home. He reached for his revolver which had been stuffed into his holster for God knows how long and the firearm was seized with rust. Bad guy had all the time in the world to shoot him. Guy would have benefited from someone telling/making him clean his sidearm on a schedule.

I personally have several firearms that I cannot tell you when the last time they were cleaned. Certainly I cleaned them sometime in the last couple years. Anything that I might pick up specifically to defend myself or my family with is clean, lubed, and maintained on a regular basis.

I used to be an obsessive, "clean after every range trip" type. Now I'm more of a "wipe down after every range trip, clean when I notice it's filthy" type. The only guns I have run until they malfunctioned were .22's - a Marlin Model 60 and a Browning Challenger III. Not enough 'oomph' in those little cases to overcome the crud buildup.

But sometimes I go in planning on simply wiping out some old oil & grease and applying new lube, only to get sucked in. It starts with scraping the crud out from under the extractor, and then cleaning the build up from the locking block, and then trying to get the dirt out from around the trigger bar, and then...oh hell, detail strip the damn thing!

But I will say that every time I have found a part that was worn, broken, or in need of replacement, it was because I cleaned the gun and inspected it.

I'll go against the grain and say I am OCD about cleaning my guns after a range session, especially the pistol I carry. It was drilled into me many years ago and I still find no reason not to do so. Fifteen minutes after a range session is minor.

I worked with guys who never cleaned their assigned SIG duty pistols. Dust, lint and God knows what food particles collected under the hammer and ejection port.

A female friend of ours is a county Search & Rescue Coordinator in Northern AZ. She takes her dogs into the deep woods, often for stupid lost hikers. She said she frequently comes upon rattlesnakes and big cats. She needed to protect herself and her two search dogs. So she carries a snub nose .38spl and asked me to clean it for her. I doubt it had been fired much, mostly carried a lot inside a pocket. The pistol was not only dirty after a long past range session, but had a rusted cylinder latch, barrel, hammer and trigger. It took me hours to clear it.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Is knowing how much gunk it takes to stop the extractor from working a useful piece of information?

Nope. I shot my guns into a dirt induced failure and I found it nearly as useless as it can be. All quality carry / duty guns will go hundreds of rounds without cleaning, but then again, you wouldn't keep your carry gun purposely gunked up. Game guns, lesser concern but I get pissed when my practice sessions get interrupted, let alone my matches. So, my take on your premise is not dont clean your guns, but dont make a religion out of it. Gun scrubber spray, few drops of carbon killer and a couple of patch runs add 5-10 min to lube job every two sessions (give or take 700 rounds). Detailed strip before big matches.

I did find some value in shooting guns into stoppages when questions of spring change intervals was of concern.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

Sure, training or competition guns that you will never use for defensive purposes, get them dirty and dont clean them. BUT your defensive gun that you use to defend your life, the life of your squad mates (if a cop or soldier), or the life of your family, had BETTER be spotlessly clean and perfectly lubricated. If not you are not operating operationally, and in fact, are a negligent dumb-ass.

"spotlessly" clean and "perfectly" lubricated or your negligent?

That is a bit much. There is a difference between maintained and properly lubricated and either "spotlessly" cleaned or filthy.

My defensive guns get a wipe down, a bore snake, and re-lubed. I have better things to do then to get them "spotless" for no reason...

Mehhh...I'm old and retired with time on my hands lol

G96!

In all seriousness, I will not go more than a couple range trips without cleaning my guns. They're expensive and I like to keep my things nice. Don't much care if that upsets anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
G96!

How's that commercial go...."I put that shit on everything"

IMO, some shooters wear a gun's spotless condition or absolute filth like a badge of honor.

When I began shooting as a kid, Dad cleaned our firearms once in a blue moon, if that. When I got out of school and started buying my own guns, I became quite anal retentive about cleaning. I like to think I'm a little more middle of the road now, but still leaning towards the cleaner side of things.

I've fired rental Glocks, Sigs, and Smiths that were way beyond dirty -- they still worked well. This was an eye opener. But I've also seen some really dirty Sigs that couldn't reliably cycle lower-powered FMJ range ammo. Overall, most center-fire caliber handguns tolerate a lot of grime without issues.

When shot a lot of sporting clays, I saw both competitors and casual shooters that refused to clean their semi auto shotguns. Guns that just wouldn't cycle reliably forced me to include spray lube/cleaner in my ammo bag. I jumped squads a number of times to get away from shooters who refused to solve their jamming problems with spray lube/cleaner. They couldn't understand why a shotgun that worked well all last year could be a problem this year.

Dirty bolt action rifles generally aren't a problem, unless the bore gets so bad the accuracy goes way south. However, some over-bore calibers need a bore cleaning regularly to shoot with optimal accuracy. I've talked to competitors who state that maybe 200 rounds is all their bores can tolerate without some swabbing. Dirty triggers can be an issue with precision rifles, especially with low-pull-weight triggers -- such as Jewell triggers.

AR-15 shooters can be really polarized on clean & lube versus dirty-til-the-point-it-stops-running. Suppressed DI ARs need regular cleaning & lube. Those who don't do this often see their rifles go tits up in the middle of matches. I used to think my AR cleaning practice of light bore cleaning plus BCG wipe down & lube was enough. Then last month my competition AR's accuracy began sucking on the second day of the match. Even after bore cleaning, accuracy sucked worse in the following weekend's practice. Turns out the bore built up the dreaded carbon ring just forward of the chamber. Getting rid of the carbon ring took accuracy from maybe-I-need-a-new-barrel 2-3 MOA back down to the rifle's normal .5 to .75 MOA.

Our choices of clean vs. gunk should be our own, and based on experience instead of interwebz lore.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

Sure, training or competition guns that you will never use for defensive purposes, get them dirty and dont clean them. BUT your defensive gun that you use to defend your life, the life of your squad mates (if a cop or soldier), or the life of your family, had BETTER be spotlessly clean and perfectly lubricated. If not you are not operating operationally, and in fact, are a negligent dumb-ass.

"spotlessly" clean and "perfectly" lubricated or your negligent?

That is a bit much. There is a difference between maintained and properly lubricated and either "spotlessly" cleaned or filthy.

My defensive guns get a wipe down, a bore snake, and re-lubed. I have better things to do then to get them "spotless" for no reason...

I believe this is the “get off my lawn” “only when I want it to work” controversy that ARC was looking for.

Just take a clue from "Holy Black" powder shooters...fouling itself can be lube

By all means clean that firearm. A clean gun is a happy gun! And "GET SOME DAMN GREASE!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:
Sure, training or competition guns that you will never use for defensive purposes, get them dirty and dont clean them. BUT your defensive gun that you use to defend your life, the life of your squad mates (if a cop or soldier), or the life of your family, had BETTER be spotlessly clean and perfectly lubricated. If not you are not operating operationally, and in fact, are a negligent dumb-ass.

"spotlessly" clean and "perfectly" lubricated or your negligent?

That is a bit much. There is a difference between maintained and properly lubricated and either "spotlessly" cleaned or filthy.

My defensive guns get a wipe down, a bore snake, and re-lubed. I have better things to do then to get them "spotless" for no reason...

I believe this is the “get off my lawn” “only when I want it to work” controversy that ARC was looking for.

Yeah unless your non-armorer qualified azz does a full tear down,'inspection', and lube after a single shot at the range, you be unprofessionalz and stuff.

Mmmkay, sounds legit.

Meethinks that people who equate 'spotless' and 'clean' with a work or carry gun don't carry often. Or maybe they have a rotation of 7 guns for every day of the week or how they feel, then clean them all on Sundays?

Mmhhh, I just don't know which it may be.

What's wrong with a clean pistol!
First of all:
1. Warm pistols are easier to clean.
2. I can clean a lightly used (200rds or less)
pistol very quickly.
3. There is nothing wrong with a cleaned pistol!

Caveats:
1. Proper lube is more important than cleaning,
(after my M4 armor course I stopped cleaning
my M4s like I did when I was enlisted).
2. With current non-corrosive ammo not cleaning
your pistol won't damage it.
3. Nothing else, clean your pistols!!!

Follow up

My M4 armorer course was taught by a cool SOCOM guy. I learned how to properly lube the rifle and that spotless cleaning wasn't required. Right after the course I purchased an M&P Sport ar15 and ran it HARD for a year without cleaning it but I lubed it and had zero malfunctions.