I'm teaching for a new academy that mandates the use of the ALS/SLS mid ride duty holster. In the past I've always used 2 seconds as a baseline par time for a draw and hit from either a thumb break, ALS or SLS, but need to know what would be acceptable for the use of both the ALS and SLS combined. The state mandate is 3 seconds for 2 hits, but I tend to set the bar a little higher in training so that qualification is easy.

My gut says 2.5 seconds but would like input from others familiar with the holster. These are raw, entry level cadets, some of who have never handled a pistol before. Needless to say, what applies to IPSC or IDPA doesn't fly here.

Thanks in advance.

In Arkansas, the state qualification allows for a total of 3 seconds for a draw and firing, and nearly all agencies around here use ALS/SLS holsters for their duty holsters. With those, 3 seconds is plenty of time, and based on my experience training academy cadets, 2 seconds is very doable with even a modicum of training/practice.

If your cadets are anything like mine, you will likely run into a small handful of cadets who haven't practiced sufficiently with their holsters, and who you will notice will want to try to release the SLS, then reacquire their grip and push back on the ALS, then finalize acquiring their grip and draw the gun, as if it's 3 separate steps with a noticeable hitch/pause in between each one. This slows down their draw significantly. They just need to train with their holster, focusing on acquiring a full firing grip from the get-go while deactivating the SLS and ALS in one practiced motion as the draw begins. Sort of like:

1) Hand goes down onto the gun, pushing the SLS down and forward with thumb while indexing the web of the hand into the beavertail area and wrapping your fingers around the grip.
2) Pull back on the ALS with your thumb as your hand tightens around the grip.
3) Draw the gun upward as the ALS releases and your grip pressure hits its final level.

All in one swift and fluid down-squeeze-draw motion. (It's hard to describe in text, but easy to demonstrate and teach in person.)

My agency has a goal on draw fire 1 from seven yards on an eight inch target in 1.5 seconds. ThaT is the goal. By setting the goal that high, I have got most personnel well below 2, with most of the younger guys being 1.5 or less. I’ve got some SWAT guys hovering around 1.1 consistent.

This takes training to be repeatable.

On my numerous trips to Rogers Shooting School, Bill will tell you the SLS only adds .2 to the draw.

However, goal setting at a basic academy standard shop be a littler lower to build confidence. When I teach at the academy, I shoot everything at half speed when I demo. Otherwise, it turns into “monkey see, monkey do” and people push to go really fast without the ability to hit stuff.

Big thing I recommend is if a shooter struggles with getting the gun out of the holster, have them ISOLATE just the steps outlined by Rogue above and get the gun a few inches out of the holster. Don’t have them do complete draws. Just work on releasing the security and pulling the gun up.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
... people push to go really fast without the ability to hit stuff.

Yup.

Also, conversely, in some thread, somewhere, somebody suggested far too many people spend far too much time trying to make tiny little groups at seven yards, slow or slow-ish fire.

That's been me.

What he suggested shooters should do is work to ramp-up speed at SD distances. His point being it does no good to be able to create tiny groups if the bad guy is faster than you and shoots you, first.

His recommendation was to start with five inch targets at five yards and work to get five shots anywhere into that five inch target in five seconds. Then, once one can consistently do that, begin moving the target back and working to do the same at the same distance.

I haven't been back to the range since I read that, but I have begun doing that in my dry-fire practice at home, with my laser thingamajig--coming up from low ready and pulling the trigger as soon as my sights align anywhere w/in four inch circles at five yards.

I also practice w/o the laser--instead concentrating on making sure that, wherever the sights end up, I'm keeping them aligned and on-target through the trigger pull. (With the laser your eyes tend to shift to the target as soon as you pull the trigger.)

I work on coming up on the target, acquiring a clean sight picture, pulling the trigger, hitting the target cleanly (w/o the laser skewing) or keeping the sights aligned on-target, then speeding up. When my form begins to suffer I back the speed off until I get it back together, then start trying to push it up again.

Eventually I'll start doing the same drawing from a holster.

Good stuff here already, and I don't have much to add except these two things:

Make sure they're not trying to cheat and disengaging the hood before the draw. Like Rogue said, it's designed to be executed in one smooth motion that releases both retentions...it's actually slower for me if the hood isn't up when I start my draw now, because it messes with my flow. It's also an officer safety issue. I have guys who want to flip the hood off before they go into a high risk situation...and I yell at them when I catch them. What if you don't have to go to guns, but it goes hands-on? You've now made it twice as easy for the bad guy to grab yours. If you've practiced it and you're doing it right, disengaging both retention devices and drawing the gun should be one smooth, natural motion.

Second, I've found that a lot of new safariland holsters need quite a bit of break in before they will draw smooth. The front sight tends to hang and shave plastic off some of the holsters internal bits for the first couple of hundred draws. When they took away my P229 and old SS3 and gave me a P320 and an SLS/ALS, I could barely get the gun out of the holster. I took it home and drew the gun 500+ times. My thumb was bleeding by the time I was done, but that gun comes out smooth now, and it was also a good way to practice drawing from the new setup.

FWIW, our academy standard for instructors is 2 seconds with 2 shots on target. I don't know as there is a standard draw time set for basics...I know they get 5 seconds to draw and fire 3 at 3 yards in the first stage of the qual.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
Second, I've found that a lot of new safariland holsters need quite a bit of break in before they will draw smooth.

Very true. Seems like it is more of an issue with some of the older 6XXX series than with the newer 7XXX series holsters, which seem to have much more generous internal tolerances. (Someone here, likely jljones, refers to them as "gun buckets".)

I've seen some 6360 holsters over the years that were ridiculously tight when brand new.

Oh, and also hit the hinge points on the hood and locking mechanism with a good quality lubricant first thing on the first day.

This goes a long way to working out a smooth draw .

Also, while we are on the topic, I have abandoned using the 73xx holsters and strictly use 63xx holsters. I have found that the 73xx binds with different guns/ gun light combinations where the 63xx has the adjustment knob to free it up.

Yeah, the 6XXX series are noticeably superior.

There have been issues with 7XXX holsters being crushed during more dynamic training (like rollover prone or defenstive tactics), or torn open during fights over gun retention. They just don't have the same strength and rigidity as the 6XXX series.

Safariland has tried to address this by offering a supplementary "Rigidity Band" that can be installed around 7XXX holsters to reinforce them.

See https://cdn.shopify.com/s/file...ers.pdf?v=1589558084

and

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/file...ory.pdf?v=1636402230

I worked toward 1.5 seconds for a draw / double tap into the torso of standard full size silhouette target, regardless of holster type and design. If the shooter was a bit slow on that, I did not worry too much as long as the hits are there. And it does take practice to hit 1.5 seconds. I have found that the ALS / SLS systems are the best combination of speedy draw and good retention out there now. And I used to rock a Bianchi Judge. I occasionally even carry an ALS concealment holster if I am going to do something (think ATV, Snowmobile, Bike,etc) where loss of the gun may be a concern.

Thanks to all for the extensive information, I'll work on synthesizing and implementing it during upcoming sessions.

...this from a guy who was high-speed when starting out 'cause I actually had a thumb break Border Patrol holster instead of a plain strap. Things have changed a little since then.

Our qual was two rounds in three seconds from the holster from the time the target turned until it turned away…

when we went from the two snap holsters to the 7300 series quals went to shit until everyone was forced to go thru remedial training with drawing and dry firing in the classroom for 30 minutes.

When I was instructing in the CG we had guys who would show up who had never even got their belt set up…and their units expected them to pass…smh

Once we spent 30 min drawing, everything worked out and the state qual time was easy enough…I saw more than one guy next to me miss the draw and make up those rounds the next time the target turned and they plowed off four rounds in three seconds…

If you go by the standards set by the gentleman who originally designed these holsters - Bill Rogers - the time would be 1.75 sec. The draw and 1 shot is 1.5 sec and add 0.25 sec for the second shot. This would be consistent with physiological reaction time to an external stimulus.

Andrew

Yep 3 seconds is a ton of time. I like to progress down to a good time though to build the proper mechanics and catch the trigger affirmers before they crease their legs. I have noticed that some try to pop their ALS and get on them for it as it does slow people down. We incorporate some of that in sim scenarios as well and point it out when they fail on the draw and take 5 to the chest.

A big holster-related thing I see after we get them to keep all of their retentions on is that some of them like to do the gunslinger and start with their hands on their guns. We bring them back to a more neutral stance so they train coming down to their hoster and working it vs starting with their hands already on it. I think a lot of bad habits come from people being in competition with their buddy next to them.

I think at an academy level, two seconds is a fine standard. It's achievable for all skill levels. Proper attack of the SLS hood and grip establishment should make the ALS a non-issue.

Any tips on properly attacking the SLS? I keep my P226 in a safariland SLS/ALS holster and keep it handy in my den and practice a few draws daily. It still isn’t fully natural or 100%.

You can see the slowish speed of my draw here if interested

https://youtube.com/shorts/SNFuzghA8AM?feature=share

Don't the 63xx series holsters have the fabric type material on the inside? I switched from a 6xxx holster to 7xxxs with als (no sls) for all my guns because of an article I read about that fabric lining expanding when it gets wet and locking the gun into the holster.

quote:

Originally posted by 1KPerDay:
Any tips on properly attacking the SLS? I keep my P226 in a safariland SLS/ALS holster and keep it handy in my den and practice a few draws daily. It still isn’t fully natural or 100%.

You can see the slowish speed of my draw here if interested

https://youtube.com/shorts/SNFuzghA8AM?feature=share

Revisit Rogue's first post. He does an excellent job of going through the specifics of drawing from the ALS/SLS rig.

The only thing I would add is that the key to speed and efficiency is to relax. Tight muscles are slow and need to be unlocked before they can move. From your video it looks like you've already gotten that concept. I don't know if it's "legal" in the discipline you're shooting in, but I teach a start position from the interview stance with the hands together at rest between the sternum and the belt buckle. The weapon hand falls to the gun while the reactionary hand ties into the body or lifts a cover garment.

All cadets are assigned homework (that should last for the duration of their gun-carrying career) to start each day with a number of "grips" of "1-counts" in which they get a good, proper one-handed grip of the pistol while in the holster. They don't have to necessarily draw the pistol, just establish a grip that doesn't need to be adjusted for the remainder of the draw or while shooting.

"If your cadets are anything like mine, you will likely run into a small handful of cadets who haven't practiced sufficiently with their holsters, and who you will notice will want to try to release the SLS, then reacquire their grip and push back on the ALS, then finalize acquiring their grip and draw the gun, as if it's 3 separate steps with a noticeable hitch/pause in between each one. This slows down their draw significantly. They just need to train with their holster, focusing on acquiring a full firing grip from the get-go while deactivating the SLS and ALS in one practiced motion as the draw begins. Sort of like:

1) Hand goes down onto the gun, pushing the SLS down and forward with thumb while indexing the web of the hand into the beavertail area and wrapping your fingers around the grip.
2) Pull back on the ALS with your thumb as your hand tightens around the grip.
3) Draw the gun upward as the ALS releases and your grip pressure hits its final level.

All in one swift and fluid down-squeeze-draw motion. (It's hard to describe in text, but easy to demonstrate and teach in person.)"

________________________________________________

This is epic truth from Rogue. Absolutely right. Officers convert a single step draw into a 3 step draw with the ALS/SLS; very inefficient and costs speed. We deal with it here every semester. It takes a great deal of correction and practice, but it's doable. Excellent advice on correction of the draw in steps 1-3.

quote:

Originally posted by Jester814:
Don't the 63xx series holsters have the fabric type material on the inside? I switched from a 6xxx holster to 7xxxs with als (no sls) for all my guns because of an article I read about that fabric lining expanding when it gets wet and locking the gun into the holster.

My duty holster is a 63xx, and it does have that material inside. I've gotten it completely soaked multiple times, including once going up to my neck in an icy swamp while wearing my duty belt, gun and all. While I don't recommend doing this for other reasons (cold as hell, and all that gear will sink you like a rock), I've never once had a problem with the holster swelling or sticking as a result of being wet.

I have gotten mine quite wet and no problems with sticking.