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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

I think you got way too defensive, way too easily and quickly.

I do not agree that you have eliminated all shooter input as a causal factor.

I did not see it mentioned, may have missed it- but has anyone suggested a clamp/vise scenario rather than just a bench-rest? That may help eliminate more of the shooter variable. Just a suggestion.

Otherwise, send it in and see what SIG says.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

Someone mentioned earlier that Bruce Gray resolved this problem by substituting out the captive guide rod with his own design. Might be worth a try and not too expensive.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

I wish you luck with resolving your problem.

BTW.....while this can be a tough place at times it is an outstanding source of information with some damn fine people involved.

quote:

Originally posted by mildot22:

quote:

Originally posted by Tompow:
Having just got here.... for the love of Pete just let someone else shoot the damn thing and get past the shooter thing!

Actually I did just that this morning, didn't help as the gun still shoots the first round high left but thanks for the suggestion.

Thank goodness. I know it must have been pretty painful for you to do. Bet it feels good to confirm that others have the same issue with it. You obviously can make good groups, was the other shooter as skilled as you? If not maybe one more test. Does your range have any rental 320s or do you have a buddy that has one? If so I'd try a control to further prove its the gun. If you call SIG CS and say you have multiple people experience the same issue and you have not been able to duplicate the problems with other 320s it will make it much harder for them to claim its a shooter related problem.

Sorry don't feel like rereading the thread. How many rounds down the pipe at this point? I wouldn't send back until over 500-800 rounds.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

Hi!

FWIW,

When we first began our long P320 R&D project in late 2014, we bench-tested 8 of the first-generation P320F9's at 25 yards, and a few at fifty. Initially, we experienced a similar phenomenon, in which at least some manually chambered first-shot rounds would strike high and left of the subsequent group.

All of these pistols would group a given, proven-accurate load into about 2" or better at 25 yards when I was doing my job behind the trigger.

At fifty yards, I had little trouble holding into the 4" X-ring of the standard NRA Action target. Thus, I could see the first-round flyer phenomenon pretty clearly.

So, I fired some experimental groups single-loading each round, and compared them to fully loaded strings for size and POI.

The manually-chambered groups were not as consistent as those obtained by just blasting away with a full mag. And, the core POI's were slightly higher, a little left. SLIGHTLY.

We're talking maybe an inch or less at 25 yards, near as I can recall. It wasn't much.

What I do recall was checking for this phenomenon the following spring, when I was preparing for the 2015 Bianchi Cup season. Amazingly, this effect seemed to have completely resolved itself in not only my personal match gun which could do 2" or so at fifty yards, but it wasn't seen in a couple other pistols I set up and tested for our shooters.

What changed?

Several factors likely contributed to what we observed:

First, my first shot in a string was often the one I found myself labouring over mentally, and eye strain is probably a factor.

These pistols all got well broken in.

And, I got a hell of a lot better at shooting them really consistently during this period.

Doing the math, I can not see how the P320 barrel lockup and slide to frame fit values can mechanically account for a consistent 4" first-shot lateral variation from a centred group at 25 yards. There simply is not nearly enough available clearance in the action to permit it. And vertically, not enough either.

I hope this insight helps.

-Bruce

That's a nice explanation. Makes sense to me and I don't even own a 320.

quote:

Originally posted by mildot22:

quote:

Originally posted by sprg03-A3:
Someone mentioned earlier that Bruce Gray resolved this problem by substituting out the captive guide rod with his own design. Might be worth a try and not too expensive.

That would definitely be worth a try if it that is what is causing my first round flier.

Yes, thank you for reminding me! It IS true that we saw strange first-round behaviour as well as less-stellar groupings from our pistols when we under-sprung them significantly. The factory guide rod assembly actually contributes to accuracy in my experience, as a consequence of higher in-battery recoil spring force compared to the relatively light 1911 recoil springs favoured by my competitor buddies for smoother sight-return characteristics.

I was perhaps not entirely sure of that at the time I may have posted a suggestion otherwise.

(That's a lawyer-like way of saying I didn't actually know what the hell I was talking about then, but you should trust my word now.)

-Bruce

quote:

Originally posted by mildot22:
OK, now that some non derogatory helpful suggestions are coming in I guess I should explain what I'm after with this gun.

A local private range is starting an early morning suppressor-gun plate shoot. The bullet speed will be capped at 1000 fps or less & 9mm/ .38.

The idea is to have an organized shoot for us early risers that can be shot without upsetting the locals that live in the area. (there seems to be a big support for this venue)

We shoot 6" dropping plates at 20 yards & 8" dropping plates at 25 yards. I normally practice at 20 meters & 25 meters so this should be right in my wheel house.

This also means that I need an accurate (suppressor hosting) 9mm gun that will cycle consistently with a can on it at 1000 fps or less. My 320-tb seems to fit this requirement (as soon as I can get the first-shot accuracy thing controlled)

Howdy! Whatever the physics may be which might be causing your first-round-stray issue, I cannot imagine that installing a suppressor won't utterly negate and alter everything, and change the way your gun groups and zeroes.

Are you getting this first-round weirdness with the threaded barrel you intend to screw old Marcel Marceau onto?

I haven't yet tested a P320 which would not group more than well enough to clean a Bianchi plate rack at 20 yards all day long.

That doesn't mean they all shoot crazy tiny groups, but they all shoot in my (hopefully relevant) experience.

It also doesn't mean I was able to do it myself at the actual Bianchi Cup with my creampuff P320 match gun, but I really want to understand why you feel yours might not be accurate enough. I just honestly haven't seen it.

Ammo?

Maybe it's all a combination of ammo, cleaning, eye strain and first-shot "yips"? Maybe the way you bag up on the bench changes after the first shot? That's bit me in the ass more than a few times when testing stuff.

I didn't read through the thread to see if you mentioned what ammo you've observed this with? I apologize.

I'm committed to helping you solve this.

-Bruce

One more time, thanks for your answers Bruce, it's very helpfull for us.
I have a P320FS and a compact, last time a friend of mine shot my FS for the first time and groups 3" high at 10m, i'm dead center. I think there is a possiblity due to the heavy trigger and the recoil impulse that some shooters anticipate a little bit the first shot. Don't get me wrong i've needed some time to adapt myself to the P320 plateform. The first time i've shot my FS i was hitting high but now that my brain has understood the trigger pull i'm hitting POA.
If SIG does't find something wrong with your gun,it's a possibility. I'm not saying it's you, but i'm shooting since 23 years now every week and it cost me thousands and thousands of rounds to be efficent with the Glock 17. Sometimes the couple shooter/pistol brand X doesn't function.

quote:

Originally posted by toto:
One more time, thanks for your answers Bruce, it's very helpfull for us.

Yes, thanks, Bruce!

quote:

Originally posted by toto:
I have a P320FS and a compact, last time a friend of mine shot my FS for the first time and groups 3" high at 10m, i'm dead center. I think there is a possiblity due to the heavy trigger and the recoil impulse ...

"Heavy trigger?" "Recoil impulse?" With a P320? Full-size?

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

quote:

Originally posted by mildot22:
--- I don't blame you for not reading through it as there are a lot of personal attacks in this thread.

That's your arrogance. You were told to let someone else shoot the pistol. Eliminate the shooter from the equation. Nearly every responder said the same thing. You view this as a personal attack.

It's possible that nobody can help you, because you cannot be helped.

None so blind.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: mildot22,

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by toto:
One more time, thanks for your answers Bruce, it's very helpfull for us.

Yes, thanks, Bruce!

quote:

Originally posted by toto:
I have a P320FS and a compact, last time a friend of mine shot my FS for the first time and groups 3" high at 10m, i'm dead center. I think there is a possiblity due to the heavy trigger and the recoil impulse ...

"Heavy trigger?" "Recoil impulse?" With a P320? Full-size?

Yes the trigger is 6,5-7 lbs, a lot different than glocks with 5,5,Lbs or sig with SA in 4,5lbs.
The P320 recoils more than the P226, and the P320C is a bit sharp for me like the PPQ, the problem is what is the gune you've shot before the P320.
I've seen very good shooters at 50m with P210's with very light triggers , sparaying all over the paper with the glock at 25m.