I've been looking into different striker systems a lot lately. As a P320 user I'm well aware of the accusations of unintended discharges, and one of the common criticisms of the platform is that it has a fully-cocked striker system which stores all of the necessary energy to fire the gun in the compressed striker spring, making it akin to carrying a single-action handgun without a safety, and theoretically more prone to discharge if the sear were to somehow disengage and the internal striker-safety become simultaneously inoperable.

While I have yet to see a mechanical demonstration of how this could happen, I can't deny that carrying around a gun that employs a system that stores all that potential energy behind a couple of small metal parts with minimal engagement between them definitely feels less safe than a traditional double-action system, where the springs are not compressed and that potential energy is not created until the trigger is pulled.

One of the things I've found interesting is that while the P320 takes criticism for having a fully-cocked striker, I have yet to find another system other than Glock (and maybe Kahr and the Beretta APX...I've been having a hard time finding details on those and don't have access to either to examine them for myself) that doesn't work the same way. Walther, Springfield, FN, CZ, S&W, H&K, Canik, Taurus all employ fully-cocked strikers in their flagship and micro-compact striker-fired handguns.

Glock is the standout with a partially cocked system that many claim is safer. I often see it specifically cited in discussions about the P320 incidents. But then today I found this:



While the Glock striker is indeed partially-cocked, this guy demonstrates that it still retains enough energy to consistently fire the gun prior to the trigger being pulled to "fully-cock" it. Thus, their partially-cocked system offers no inherent safety benefit over their fully-cocked competitors.

I realize there are other factors at play here (trigger dinguses, striker block designs, etc.), and I don't want this to be a discussion of those. I'm just curious if anybody knows of a striker system on the market today that is truly "uncocked" (doesn't store enough energy to fire the gun) until the trigger is pulled.

Walther p99 has a decocker for the striker

I would think that the Kahr long “double action” type trigger action may fall into that category, but I honestly don’t know for sure.

I’ll take a look at one of my guns and report back later

ETA- I just looked up the magazine well into the bottom of the slide, you can definitely see that the firing pin is preloaded against the sear, so no this would not qualify for what you’re looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by lewk:
Walther p99 has a decocker for the striker

If you decock the striker on a P99 does the trigger then function in DA mode to fire the gun?

My understanding is that there are some guns out there (Certain Canik models maybe?)that have a striker release button to unload the striker tension, but once actuated the slide must be retracted at least partially to reset the striker before the gun can be fired.

The enhanced level of safety with Glock's half-cocked striker is the longer length of pull required on the trigger to complete cocking. This confers an inherent extra layer of safety against acidental trigger actuation.

The problem with the P320 is not so much having a fully-cocked striker, but that the civilian versions are offered without mechanical safeties, either a manual slide safety, and/or a tabbed trigger safety.

I believe the Walther PPS and Hellcat series are “safe action” as well, off the top of my head.

Some of the “problem” isn’t so much the fully cocked striker but both the trigger travel and weight of breaking the sear. We’ve seen to chase the easiest, lightest trigger resulting in both short travel and light breaks and IMO this is a bit of a recipe for disaster on guns without some kind of “off button” safety.

I fully believe they should at the very least have the tabbed trigger safety.

Guns like the VP9 are fully cocked but also have a fair bit of trigger travel and decently heavy break.

At the end of the day guns are dangerous, they are supposed to be. You just need to be familiar with “your” particular platforms pitfalls and issues and either work around them or move to something else if possible. A DA/SA gun you forget to decock is quite dangerous in and of itself.

Just to clarify something. Sometimes when I reply to threads I do so with an eye towards less experienced folks who might read this as well as hopefully provide some insight to the OP.

If I ever come across condescending or in a way that makes you go “well duh I know guns are dangerous” please know some of that isn’t directed specifically at you. I know the vast amount of members here are quite knowledgeable, far more then I in most cases, so no offense intended if I ever post something that sounds like I think somebody is uneducated or an idiot. That is NEVER my desire.

Ok…….almost never.

Glock, OK, so a partially cocked striker can set off a primer. With the slide off the frame two safeties have been defeated. By using a tool to depress the striker block the 3'rd safety is defeated. I don't know of anything that shows other than how to fire a Glock without its frame, Maybe some sort of zip gun ?
Otherwise, I have no idea about a striker system on the market today that is truly "uncocked".

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Glock themselves have never claimed that the half-cocked striker is itself a safety protocol as far as inability to ignite a round. It's just an internet myth.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

Originally posted by lewk:
Walther p99 has a decocker for the striker

If you decock the striker on a P99 does the trigger then function in DA mode to fire the gun?

My understanding is that there are some guns out there (Certain Canik models maybe?)that have a striker release button to unload the striker tension, but once actuated the slide must be retracted at least partially to reset the striker before the gun can be fired.

Yes. A Walther P99 actually functions the same as any other DA/SA pistol and is intended to be operated as such (i.e. decock for carry, no manual safety, long first trigger pull).

As for the Canik (a Walther clone), the best way to explain the striker release button function is by using the P99 as an example. The P99 originally came in 3 variants:

AS (Anti Stress - their DA/SA mechanism)
QA (Quick Action - a partially cocked striker like a Glock)
DAO (Double Action Only - self explanatory)

The AS had the “decocking button” and QA had the “field strip aid”. But both were actually just striker release buttons that performed the exact same function in the exact same way (releasing the striker without causing a discharge). In addition to readying an AS for carry, these buttons also eliminated the need to pull the trigger for successful disassembly (unlike Glock and similar pistols). However, because the QA was a partially cocked striker like a Glock (single trigger pull without second strike capability), its button was made much smaller and with greater spring tension (intentionally much more difficult to press) because it was only intended to be used as a field stripping aid. You wouldn’t want to press it accidentally. On the AS, it serves as both a decocker (in the standard DA/SA manual of arms) and as a field strip aid. Naturally, the DAO model had no button, as the striker was always uncocked anyway. Any Canik that has used this button has used it for the exact same purpose (decock + field stripping aid, or just field stripping aid, depending on the model).

Not currently on the market, but P7 is striker fired and the striker is not under spring tension until ready to be fired.

kkina and cslinger are correct. The partially-cocked striker of a Glock does not really reduce the chance of a discharge in the event that its other internal parts spontaneously break down and cause the striker to release by itself. kkina is also correct that Glock has never actually claimed such advantage in the first place. The main "safety feature" provided by a partially-cocked striker is the longer (extra distance, but not necessarily extra weight) trigger pull that helps prevent an unintentional discharge (on the part of the shooter) during normal operation. Nothing more.

Criticism of the P320 is completely justified, but it usually needs to be better specified. The fully-cocked striker on its own is not the issue. The only "issue" with a fully-cocked striker on its own is the potentially greater risk of unintentional discharge (again, on the part of the shooter) during normal operation. This "issue" is not really an issue (it's more a matter of sufficient training and/or personal preference) and it's shared by every other pistol with a fully-cocked striker as well as every hammer-fired SAO pistol.

The issue with the P320 is simply the lack of a trigger tab safety (or trigger blade safety or whatever you want to call it). The P320 (even without a manual thumb safety) has several internal passive safeties that either prevent the striker from releasing by itself or catching it if it somehow does. Naturally, all of these safeties are of course defeated when you pull the trigger (to normally operate the pistol). But if dropped a certain way, the trigger is also able to pull itself. The impact of the drop causes the trigger bar (whose motion is responsible for deactivating all of those passive internal safeties) to want to move under its own weight and it is only capable of doing so because the lack of a trigger tab safety allows the trigger (which is of course attached to the trigger bar) to move freely.

The next logical question is why a cocked hammer-fired pistol does not do the same (despite the lack of a trigger blade safety) when dropped. The answer is that the mechanical leverage needed for the trigger bar to trip the sear is much greater in a hammer-fired pistol than it is in a striker-fired pistol. cslinger, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what you were alluding to.

The P99 DAO (long since discontinued) always comes to mind for me as an example of a striker-fired pistol whose striker is always completely uncocked at rest. Any spring tension of the striker occurs only when the trigger itself is pulled. As far as what is on the market today, I do believe some of the striker-fired Ruger pistols and maybe one or two of the striker-fired Smith & Wesson pistols have a true DAO (no partially-cocked nor fully-cocked strikers) setup.

Yep. For a partially cocked striker to have any safety advantage over a fully cocked striker, you would have to disable/sabotage the firing pin block, and once you're going to intentionally damage or gimmick a gun, then the sky's the limit on what you can make a firearm do.

I also cannot think of a striker fired gun sold on the market that didn't have a firing pin block or some variety of safety like the P7 squeeze cocker. It's not like a Series 70 1911 or CZ Shadow 2 that will fire if you whack the gun hard enough or have your fingers slip off the hammer when you're trying to lower it.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
My understanding is that there are some guns out there (Certain Canik models maybe?)that have a striker release button to unload the striker tension, but once actuated the slide must be retracted at least partially to reset the striker before the gun can be fired.

Canik's TP9SA has a striker decocker button on top of its slide. When you decock it, it renders the striker inert and requires at least partially cycling the slide to cock the striker.

They also have TP9DA, which works the same as a Walther P99AS. Decocking the striker puts the gun in DA mode. The P99AS & TP9DA are the only striker guns I know of that operate the same way as DA/SA hammer guns.

quote:

I do believe some of the striker-fired Ruger pistols and maybe one or two of the striker-fired Smith & Wesson pistols have a true DAO

I believe Ruger's LC9s & EC9s are DAO, although they may be partially preloaded the way Kahrs are.

^^^I thought that any preload (whether partial or full) was what made a striker-fired pistol incapable of second strike.

quote:

Originally posted by DanH:
Yep. For a partially cocked striker to have any safety advantage over a fully cocked striker, you would have to disable/sabotage the firing pin block, and once you're going to intentionally damage or gimmick a gun, then the sky's the limit on what you can make a firearm do.

I also cannot think of a striker fired gun sold on the market that didn't have a firing pin block or some variety of safety like the P7 squeeze cocker. It's not like a Series 70 1911 or CZ Shadow 2 that will fire if you whack the gun hard enough or have your fingers slip off the hammer when you're trying to lower it.

Believe it or not, the firing pin block (in the slide) is not the drop safety on a Glock, or at least not the main one. Glock’s drop safety is actually the cutout in plastic portion of the trigger assembly that prevents the trigger bar (and therefore the “sear”) from moving up or down. The firing pin block is a backup ant most, and may have only been included to get extra points on that ATF import sheet.

As I said in the OP, I'm well aware that there are a lot of other factors at play when it comes to the overall safety of different designs. I'm not looking to debate all of that or validate which design is best...I'm just trying to narrow in on this one specific design element.

Thanks to several of you for the education on the Walthers and Caniks. I have very little exposure to them and was not familiar with the various trigger options or how they worked. The P99 is out of production now, correct?

quote:

I believe the Walther PPS and Hellcat series are “safe action” as well, off the top of my head.

Interesting about the Hellcat. A bit of research leads me to believe you are correct. I also saw something about the XDS using a partially cocked strikes, while the XD is fully-cocked. Anybody know if this is true?

The P99 is out of production unfortunately. The Final Edition is still pretty widely available though if you’re interested.

The XD does use a fully-cocked striker to the best of my knowledge. I have no clue about the XDS though.

The Glock Performance Trigger utilizes a fully-cocked striker.