quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
More damage is done to firearm bores from improper cleaning than any other reason.

I have seen and heard that statement countless times, but I have never known anyone to be able to explain how they know that. Are there markers or signs that demonstrate that damage was caused by improper cleaning? Do they allow us to distinguish among the possible types of improper cleaning—e.g., wrong bore brush, improper use of the cleaning rod, harmful chemical, ….? I have looked at the bores of many guns over the decades, and the only damage I could ever see was the pitting caused by rust.

But I am also curious about the “foam cleaner” you use. What brand/type do you like?

FWIW, one of the reasons I like the immersion method is because it is completely effective and involves minimum use of mechanical methods.

quote:

Originally posted by SVTNate:
I tried the olive method, which works great on dirty barrels, but I ate several of the olives to make room for another dirty barrel, and now I'm not feeling very well. Is there a step to this method that you guys forgot to tell me?

Yes, instead of eating the olives, store them in tupperware. You know, a Glock.

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
Just give any pistol or rifle barrel one shot of foam bore cleaner and let it soak overnight.

I learned the hard way when collecting old milsurp rifles with frosted and pitted bores. More damage is done to firearm bores from improper cleaning than any other reason.

Below a 1943 No.4 British .303 Enfield rifle with a frosted bore. One shot of foam bore cleaner removed all the copper and carbon with no brushing.



Spare the rod and spoil the bore.

Impressive. What is the brand of foam bore cleaner you used for that. Inquiring minds must know !

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
More damage is done to firearm bores from improper cleaning than any other reason.

I have seen and heard that statement countless times, but I have never known anyone to be able to explain how they know that. Are there markers or signs that demonstrate that damage was caused by improper cleaning? Do they allow us to distinguish among the possible types of improper cleaning—e.g., wrong bore brush, improper use of the cleaning rod, harmful chemical, ….? I have looked at the bores of many guns over the decades, and the only damage I could ever see was the pitting caused by rust.

But I am also curious about the “foam cleaner” you use. What brand/type do you like?

FWIW, one of the reasons I like the immersion method is because it is completely effective and involves minimum use of mechanical methods.

If you want to see improperly cleaned firearms just pick up a few WWI and WWII milsurp rifles.

After working on a military overhaul facility and seeing field pieces and small arms barrels I can tell you sand and dust will destroy and bore.

Bottom line, I let the foam do all the work without scrubbing or a bore brush. Most times this means very few passes with a cleaning rod and patch.

The Finnish military are the ones who started using the foam bore cleaner first.

http://www.army-technology.com...s/artillery/milfoam/

Barrel Cleaning Procedures
The Great Debate--Brushing and Cleaning Intervals

http://www.accurateshooter.com...rel-cleaning-debate/
Moderator, AccurateShooter.com
“When my Pac-Nor 3-groove was brand new it shot in the low 2s. Now, 600 rounds later it still shoots in the low 2s. I have never put a brush (bronze OR nylon) in the barrel, having cleaned every 30-50 rounds with wet patches and Wipe-out. You may be surprised how little cleaning you really have to do.”

First let me say that I don’t have the competition credentials of the other gentlemen on the page, but I do think my tale of brushless barrel maintenance is worth telling. On my Savage with Pac-Nor 3-groove barrel, I noticed from the start that it fouled very little and nearly all the visible carbon and soot would come out with two or three wet patches (Butch’s, Shooter’s Choice, MPro-7). To remove the remaining fouling, I simply apply Wipe-Out foam cleaner. After about an hour, once the bubbles have dissipated from the first application, I’ll fill the bore with Wipe-Out a second time. Four hours later I’ll dry-patch the barrel and then it’s ready to shoot again. With over 400 rounds through the tube, accuracy is as good as ever. The gun still shoots as well as it did in the beginning, and it recently delivered a 1.6″ group at 610 yards. My cleaning procedure may not suffice for registered benchrest, but for club-level fun shooters and varminters, you may find you don’t need to brush your barrel at all, or only need to brush very minimally every 150 rounds or so. Less brushing gives you more time for reloading and shooting, and using foam reduces the chances of messing up your crown/throat through impact damage or abrasion. You may just want to give my “lazy-man’s” method a try before you start sawing away with rod and brush on that nice new barrel.

I clean all my pistols, bolt action rifles and gas operated rifles that have easy access to the gas system. Example if not removed from the gas tube of a M1 Grand the foam will gum up the rifle. And AR15s SKS and AK47 type rifles are very easy to clean with foam bore cleaner, with a little solvent or aerosol solvent, gun blaster, break cleaner, etc.

CLEANING WITH BREAK-FREE BORE CLEANING FOAM
http://www.weaponevolution.com...E-BORE-CLEANING-FOAM

Gunslick Cleaning Products Promotional video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY6yIsDto30

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
I can tell you sand and dust will destroy and bore.

And what does that have to do with improper cleaning methods—unless they’re not cleaned at all, which seems to be the opposite of over-cleaning?

But ignoring that tangent, and to reiterate my original question, how do we know when improper cleaning ruined a barrel? And how do we know which improper method(s) cause the damage?

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
I can tell you sand and dust will destroy and bore.

And what does that have to do with improper cleaning methods—unless they’re not cleaned at all, which seems to be the opposite of over-cleaning?

But ignoring that tangent, and to reiterate my original question, how do we know when improper cleaning ruined a barrel? And how do we know which improper method(s) cause the damage?

Just try some foam bore cleaner and stop being so negative. The OP asked the following.

"Looking for super easy, super clean method of cleaning semi-auto pistol barrels"

And I gave my answer, nothing cleans better than foam bore cleaner. Without any scrubbing and very little cleaning rod time.


http://www.army-technology.com...s/artillery/milfoam/

Milfoam Ltd. is a Finnish company specialised in barrel cleaning solutions. Milfoam products have been supplied to the Finnish Defence Forces and many other end users worldwide. Milfoam provides a complete barrel cleaning system for all kind of firearms. The system is based on a patented foam technology and NATO approved chemicals and lubricants for artillery, mechanized units, infantry, navy and air force.
CHALLENGES FOR TODAYS BARREL CLEANING

There are new challenges for barrel cleaning. New more powerful powders, longer barrels (155mm / 52cal.), new rotating rings (plastic / PTFE), new environmental regulations etc. have put the gunners in a difficult situation. The problems related to gun barrel cleaning have increased, but the time and manpower available for cleaning are continuously reduced.

The most common cleaning methods worldwide are manual, primitive, labour intensive and time-consuming gun barrel cleaning. Those methods are prone to human negligence and the results are unsatisfactory. Due to the abrasive nature of the traditional manual cleaning with just a rod, oil and brush, the operational life of the ordnance might significantly be reduced. Dismounting the gun barrel to thoroughly clean it from copper residues consumes a lot of time, manpower and money.
MILFOAM FOAM TECHNOLOGY FOR BARREL CLEANING

Milfoam's patented foam is an odorless, non-toxic and environmental friendly compound, non hazardous to humans, does not cause any adverse effect on contact with human skin and does not result in the emission of hazardous or toxic fumes and gases.

Milfoam solutions for challenges:

Foam makes powder softer to take away by brushing
Foamer cleaning system does not need manpower, when it is working
Foam oxidizes the copper / brass away during cleaning process
Foam makes plastic residues softer to take away by brushing
Foam is environmentally safe for user

Main strengths of foam technology are:

Chemical reaction for removing carbon, copper, and other residues effectively
The foam covers the complete barrel, 360°
Easy for use, non-abrasive and non-corrosive
Cost effective
Odorless, non-hazardous and environmental friendly

SMALL ARMS BARREL CLEANING FOAM

The bore cleaning foam is a cleaning agent, which removes the carbon, copper and other residues effectively from any weapon barrel through a chemical reaction.

Milfoam's flexible cleaning rod and wicks designed for small arms standardizes the level cleaning result among the users. The cleaning rods are used in several NATO countries as standard issued equipment.
BORE CLEANING FOR MEDIUM SIZE (76mm AND 105mm) GUN BARRELS

The bore cleaning foam removes without brushing the powder and copper residues. It saves time and labor costs. The foam replaces the long time brushing.

The dispenser is designed to efficiently spread the bore cleaning foam in 76mm and 105mm gun barrels.
HEAVY BARREL FOAM CLEANING SYSTEM FOR 76mm TO 155mm BARRELS

It completely replaces the current abrasive cleaning methods and uses Milfoam's patented and non-toxic foam technology. It makes it possible to efficiently clean any gun barrel from copper and powder residues without removing it from the platform, which saves both time and money. The foamer is designed to perform all the cleaning, drying and oiling functions. The cleaning operation is automatic, which enables the personnel to conduct other tasks while the foamer is running. The cleaning result using the foamer is outstanding compared to any other method available.

The Milfoam barrel cleaning system serves the following purposes:

Modern equipment to support barrel cleaning and drying after firing, under all types of terrain and climatic conditions
Removal of copper, powder residues, aluminium residues and rust
Oiling of the ordnance for short and long-term preservation.
Saves manpower, time and money

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
I can tell you sand and dust will destroy and bore.

And what does that have to do with improper cleaning methods—unless they’re not cleaned at all, which seems to be the opposite of over-cleaning?

But ignoring that tangent, and to reiterate my original question, how do we know when improper cleaning ruined a barrel? And how do we know which improper method(s) cause the damage?

If there is sand in the barrel and you run a brush down the barrel, you will brush the sand down the length of the barrel,and it will cause the sand to scratch the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
I can tell you sand and dust will destroy and bore.

And what does that have to do with improper cleaning methods—unless they’re not cleaned at all, which seems to be the opposite of over-cleaning?

But ignoring that tangent, and to reiterate my original question, how do we know when improper cleaning ruined a barrel? And how do we know which improper method(s) cause the damage?

If there is sand in the barrel and you run a brush down the barrel, you will brush the sand down the length of the barrel,and it will cause the sand to scratch the barrel.

jimmy123x

You must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am.

quote:

If there is sand in the barrel and you run a brush down the barrel, you will brush the sand down the length of the barrel,and it will cause the sand to scratch the barrel.

So, how do you get the sand out of the barrel? Spraying foaming bore cleaner might loosen it, but eventually something (patch, brush, bore snake etc) needs to mechanically remove the sand or other such fouling on out. Maybe a high pressure water jet (power washer) might work. Trying to learn here since maybe what I've been doing for 50 plus years is all wrong.

The British would would pore 2 pints of boiling water down the bore of their Enfield rifles. This would remove the corrosive salts dirt and carbon in the bore. This was followed with a pull through and a oiled patch.

Today any aerosol cleaner, gun scrubber, carb cleaner etc. will remove dirt, sand etc.from the bore.

The dirt, dust and sand of Afghanistan and Iraq are very hard on military weapons. Requiring weapons to be cleaned 3 to 4 times a day.

Great, thanks for the information on the Milfoam. Now, where does one acquire the product? It’s evidently made in Finland and a quick Internet search failed to turn up a retailer in the country where I am, the United States of America. I’d be interested in trying it, but I can’t do that if I can’t buy it at a reasonable price and with reasonable effort.

To make one last attempt at explaining my other question for the benefit of anyone here who may not be a native English speaker, it is this:
How do we know that more gun barrels are ruined by improper cleaning methods than anything else? To reiterate, it’s something I’ve heard pontificated for decades, but I’ve never seen any explanation of how that can be determined.

And to make another point clear, I’m not referring to cleaning military weapons under combat conditions, and neither, I believe, was the member who started this thread. I don’t believe he is talking about cleaning the barrel of his M9 in Afghanistan or in the trenches of the Western Front.

But even if he is, that’s not what I’m asking about. My comments are about cleaning the barrels of guns owned and shot by civilians under civilian shooting conditions in the USA today: If you believe, “More damage is done to firearm bores from improper cleaning than any other reason,” how do you know? What’s your basis of knowledge? Is it something you see? If so, what? Is it based on scientific or technical mechanical inspections coupled with a large number of controlled test subjects? Or is it something the guy at the gun counter tells everyone?

In my experience, most damage to the bores (and the rest of the gun) is caused by simple neglect leading to rust. Someone might call that “improper cleaning,” but I don’t. Improper cleaning to me means that the cleaning method itself causes the damage; that includes using stainless steel bore brushes, using pull-through devices like “snakes” or other things like cleaning rods that rub on the crown of the bore, or using improper chemicals. Back when corrosive primers or blackpowder was used in cartridges, failing to clean out the residues would also cause damage, but that’s not common today, and it’s also not what I consider to be “improper” cleaning in the sense that the cleaning itself causes the damage.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Great, thanks for the information on the Milfoam. Now, where does one acquire the product? It’s evidently made in Finland and a quick Internet search failed to turn up a retailer in the country where I am, the United States of America. I’d be interested in trying it, but I can’t do that if I can’t buy it at a reasonable price and with reasonable effort

Google foam bore cleaners, you can pick it up in any sporting goods store in the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
In my experience, most damage to the bores (and the rest of the gun) is caused by simple neglect leading to rust. Someone might call that “improper cleaning,” but I don’t. Improper cleaning to me means that the cleaning method itself causes the damage; that includes using stainless steel bore brushes, using pull-through devices like “snakes” or other things like cleaning rods that rub on the crown of the bore, or using improper chemicals. Improper cleaning to me means that the cleaning method itself causes the damage; that includes using stainless steel bore brushes, using pull-through devices like “snakes” or other things like cleaning rods that rub on the crown of the bore, or using improper chemicals Back when corrosive primers or blackpowder was used in cartridges, failing to clean out the residues would also cause damage, but that’s not common today, and it’s also not what I consider to be “improper” cleaning in the sense that the cleaning itself causes the damage.

You answered your own question.

And when the first M16 rifles were sent to Viet Nam for testing no cleaning rods were sent with them. The GIs were using a boot shoelace and a piece of T-shirt to clean the bore.

You were in the Army so you can't tell me you never saw a REMF improperly cleaning his weapon.

And my next door neighbor is a retired W4 warrant officer in Army Intelligence and I had to retrain him on how to shoot my Sig 228. And I sure wouldn't let him clean any of my firearms.

Improperly cleaned firearms....SNAFU

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
Google foam bore cleaners, you can pick it up in any sporting goods store in the USA.
...
And my next door neighbor is a retired W4 warrant officer in Army Intelligence and I had to retrain him on how to shoot my Sig 228. And I sure wouldn't let him clean any of my firearms.

I did (that’s what “Internet search” in my previous post referred to) and found no listings for any American retailers who sell the Finnish product you referenced. But at this point your vague responses make it hard to know whether you’re referring to that specific cleaner or some other brand, so I’ll leave it at that and continue with the ways I’ve been doing things for many a year.

Thanks anyway, but if your gratuitous comment about military intelligence warrant officers was an unsubtle dig at me personally, dig away; we MI/CID warrants can take it.

The foam bore cleaner was invented and patented in Finland. All U.S. made foam bore cleaners are made under license and have been out for years.

If need be I could send you a newer TM on foam bore cleaners than you have now.

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
The foam bore cleaner was invented and patented in Finland. All U.S. made foam bore cleaners are made under license and have been out for years.

Now, see: That wasn’t so hard, was it?

This forum is all about sharing useful information, and now that you’ve gotten to that point in this discussion, thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by bigedp51:
The foam bore cleaner was invented and patented in Finland. All U.S. made foam bore cleaners are made under license and have been out for years.

Now, see: That wasn’t so hard, was it?

This forum is all about sharing useful information, and now that you’ve gotten to that point in this discussion, thank you.

No problem, I'm glad your now up on modern cleaning methods.

Go Army, be all you can be.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
but if your gratuitous comment about military intelligence warrant officers was an unsubtle dig at me personally, dig away; we MI/CID warrants can take it.

This!

With 14 whole posts in 6 years your comments made you the first person on here to hit my ignored list.

I tried the Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner on two barrels this weekend.

It worked well, easily and less cleanup afterwards.

Nice product.

It does have a warning not to get it into the action, and not to let it get into the gas system on gas driven semi-autos.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
I tried the Gunslick Foaming Bore Cleaner on two barrels this weekend.

I’m curious now about the claim that all foaming bore cleaners are evidently the same because they’re produced under license from the Finnish company. Is there any indication of any of that on the Gunslick container? (I don’t have any local gun stores in which I can look at different brands myself.)

And if anyone has tried or has access to more than one brand, I’d be very interested in your observations and experiences: Are they all the same and it doesn’t matter which one we choose?

.

SigFreund, I found it...

MilFoam's (www.MilFoam.co.uk/dealers.html) USA Authorized Manufacturer is ATK Onalaska Operations (www.GunSlick.com)

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