_____________________________________________ Proverbs 3:31 "Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways."
January 13, 2023, 12:23 AM
iron chef
I just found out about ROSE by SIG Sauer a couple hours ago too. It looks as if it was lifted out of S&W Ladysmith marketing from the 1980s.
I know we have mixed feelings on here about Sig's special editions: Spectre, Scorpion, Equinox, Elite, etc, and let's not leave out rainbow PVD finished slides either.
ROSE takes a page out of the Legion playbook by offering exclusive membership benefits to customers who purchase a ROSE edition Sig. Hey Sig, how long do we have to wait for a ROSE challenge coin?
Unfortunately, ROSE's quiet product launch was unable to escape a bit of controversy. I'm going to cut & paste some unflattering comments posted on Sig's FB page, b/c they're likely to be deleted.
quote:
This program ripped off the concept created by Marie Pace of Lafayette Louisiana. Not neither sig nor Lena gave any credit to Marie. It is sad to see Lena go down this road of commercialization. Furthermore Lena purports to teach women to protect themselves. How is this? What experience does Lena have w real violence. She shoots paper targets for a living. Lena is a professional hole puncher who has as much in common w self defense as a hole puncher. No gunfight ever started w a beep. No hand to hand or knife are taught which happen to be present at a majority of gun fights that also happen at six ft and under. A person who practices gun aerobics has very little experience w actual real life violence.
quote:
Sad. Marie Pace has trained and sent 1000s of women to get SIGs. Now we have a lot of disappointed SIG owners here in south Louisiana. Many of them will never purchase a SIG again.
quote:
Shame on you Lena and Sig. You approached my friend who already has training for women here in Louisiana and asked to use her idea and the word Rose. She politely declined your request so you and Sig decided to steal her idea and work to capitalize on her ideas and work. I thought better of you than this. I own Sig firearms but assure you that I will purchase no more. You and Sig should be ashamed of yourselves, but then money trumps principles doesn’t it?
Well... I guess The famous quote from Oscar Wilde, “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery” is very fitting for today... 3 years ago my son and I created Tactical Rose
About 6 months ago a national competitive shooter contacted me directly and asked if it would be ok for her and a large national gun manufacturer to use the ROSE name in their logo and new product on the future line up. She stated they wanted to do everything we were already doing: an online group, training women exclusively, etc. I politely and firmly told her 'NO'. Well... today... she and "they" did it anyway. So ... what should I do? attack and defend or sit back and take this as an incredible form of flattery? I will do the latter.
Well played young lady. (Lena Miculek). Well played SIG SAUER. enjoy your future. May karma have the last word. I have lost respect for both of them and will no longer support the sale of Sigs for my students
I despise egos and pettiness and no one has the corner on the market. but there is a sense of fair play and good business practices that should be followed. by the fact that they reached out to literally ask permission and then ignore my response and move forward, in the same state (Louisiana ) is not good business practice in my book. I am not pursuing any legal action… but respect is lost with unprofessionalism, rudeness, and disrespect being shown to my business.
Edited to correct "Maria" to "Marie".This message has been edited. Last edited by: iron chef,
January 13, 2023, 03:53 AM
92fstech
Well, the website is down now....wonder if that's intentional?
Any comments made by this poster are my own and do not reflect the views or opinions of my employer.
January 13, 2023, 05:19 AM
Blume9mm
I see both sides of it.... kind of hard to copyright the word 'Rose'... but I'm sure there are a couple thousand lawyers who would disagree with me. They did ask her to be a part and she declines... Also, starting a program to teach women to shoot and defend themselves is nothing new and I would venture that it has been done way before the 'tactical rose' folks claim to have invented it.
My Native American Name: "Runs with Scissors"
January 13, 2023, 06:42 AM
Mars_Attacks
Well, they sure couldn't call it a Daisy.
How about Black Eyed Susan, Never Again Edition?
Tabs has her sugar skull Glock for if she has to use it, they will discover what day of the dead truly is.
____________________________
Eeewwww, don't touch it! Here, poke at it with this stick.
January 13, 2023, 06:45 AM
nhracecraft
Lawyers will sort this out. I'm sure SIG's lawyers had already took a hard look at this and gave the nod to go forward. Maybe 'Marie Pace's lawyers filed a 'Cease & Desist' and SIG decided to pull things down temporarily while the legal issues get sorted out. All pure speculation on my part...
Regarding the 'copyright' claim, though IANAL, I believe what they actually would've/should've/could've filed for would be a 'Trademark', which protects the use of a company's name and its product names, brand identity (like logos) and slogans. We'll see soon enough if that's what they did.
We're really only hearing one side of the story here, so who knows...If SIG has actually engaged in trademark infringement, that would be a MAJOR fuck up on their part, and a MAJOR fail by their corporate attorneys! Time will tell...
All that said, it's hard not to notice how petty those facebook posts are...Of course, it's just like most everything else on facebook!
If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Making America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die!
January 13, 2023, 07:48 AM
parabellum
Sorry, what's the issue? I looked over this thread but I still don't understand why people are upset. A concept was ripped off? A name?
And this stuff about many people never again buying a SIG over this? Please. Let's get hold of ourselves.
I do think I'd be interested in one of those Rose challenge coins, though.
January 13, 2023, 07:53 AM
P220 Smudge
Well, I've heard of Lena Miculek. I've never heard of Maria Pace.
People like to tribe, and I get that, but shitting all over Lena because she's a competitive shooter isn't a great look. After a quick search, this "Tactical Rose" group seems to only exist as a private Facebook group. You can't market that. As for trademarking "rose" in connection with guns, I mean, good luck. Sig's site is up and running. Whoever this Maria Pace lady is, she doesn't have the name recognition any Miculek is going to have in the shooting sports. Sorry. That sucks, but maybe she should've tried to carve out a piece for herself instead of making herself easy to totally cut out of the picture.
______________________________________________ "If the truth shall kill them, let them die.”
Endeavoring to master the subtle art of the grapefruit spoon.
January 13, 2023, 08:02 AM
Aglifter
I don’t think the “Tactical Rose” people actually had a trademark.
Not sure they actually had an entity/were in the marketplace under that name.
January 13, 2023, 09:19 AM
pedropcola
What is scary is that in America Sig might have the upper hand. Crazy as that sounds. If Sig has/will trademark the name Rose and it’s firearm connection and is successful they could come back around and force Ms Pace to change her programs name potentially. Not a lawyer but that doesn’t seem far fetched. At all.
Ms Pace upon that first email should have trademarked everything in her program that she could.
Bucc-ees goes after any marsupial toy that is sold at gas stations. And win usually.
January 13, 2023, 10:27 AM
nhracecraft
Well, a closer look at the webpage (which IS up!) and the downloadable 'Rose' Target indicates they've got links to a private group on facebook [rosecommunitysigsauer] as well as links to Rose accounts to follow on Twitter [rose_sigsauer] and Instagram [rose.sigsauer]. Curiously, if you look at the 'Rose' webpage, you'll notice that graphic for the private facebook community group indicates nearly 20,000 members, but if you click on the 'join the community' link, it indicates only 1700 members. Regardless, I'm thinking Marie Pace is gonna have an uphill battle fighting against SIG on this.
Maybe all of SIGforum's facebook inclined female members, and any significant others so inclined as well, should all sign up for the community group, and again, if inclined to use the platform(s), follow Rose on Twitter and Instagram to, you know, 'show our support'!
If Some is Good, and More is Better.....then Too Much, is Just Enough !! Trump 47....Making America Great Again! "May Almighty God bless the United States of America" - parabellum 7/26/20 Live Free or Die!
January 13, 2023, 11:17 AM
Pale Horse
quote:
Originally posted by nhracecraft: I'm thinking Marie Pace is gonna have an uphill battle fighting against SIG on this.
She said she’s not fighting it.
“Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014
January 13, 2023, 11:43 AM
iron chef
quote:
Originally posted by pedropcola: Ms Pace upon that first email should have trademarked everything in her program that she could.
Yep, from an intellectual property law standpoint, the argument would be, "If you didn't bother to trademark your branding, logos, etc, then you must not be bothered by others copying or imitating them."
Having a women's-only shooting class/club/support group is nothing groundbreaking or original, but damn Sig, did you have to be so blatant about ripping off a small business? The Legion concept is not original either, but I'm certain Sig would not take things lightly if another gun manufacturer put out their own line of Legion pistols. I could see the arguments:
"Sig's Legions are gray; ours are bronze. Sig's Legion logo is a chevron; our Legion logo is a butter bar. You can't confuse the two. Our Legion group and line of guns has nothing to do w/ Sig."
There's nothing original about a photo w/ a handgun & pocket knife positioned together, but I remember many years ago a lot of members here were displeased by someone using the P225 & Delica SF homepage photo screen-printed on t-shirts, mugs, mousepads, etc for sale. It isn't (or at the time wasn't) trademarked. That doesn't change the fact that it was ripped-off.
January 13, 2023, 04:17 PM
cyberiad
She might have been able to trademark "Tactical Rose" and probably still can, but I doubt "Rose" can be trademarked. It seems to me that's like trying to trademark "Milk". I've been wrong before though.
Anyway, Sig wanted to talk to her about her company "Tactical Rose" and she said no. It was nice of them to ask but I don't see the issue here. There's nothing to fight over.
January 13, 2023, 04:22 PM
parabellum
I see. In that case, whatever has happened is none of our business as far as I'm concerned.
January 13, 2023, 06:40 PM
3ACR_Scout
quote:
Originally posted by iron chef: Having a women's-only shooting class/club/support group is nothing groundbreaking or original, but damn Sig, did you have to be so blatant about ripping off a small business? The Legion concept is not original either, but I'm certain Sig would not take things lightly if another gun manufacturer put out their own line of Legion pistols. I could see the arguments:
"Sig's Legions are gray; ours are bronze. Sig's Legion logo is a chevron; our Legion logo is a butter bar. You can't confuse the two. Our Legion group and line of guns has nothing to do w/ Sig."
Slightly off topic, but I keep wondering if this 36 year old major corporation is ever going to object to the name of S&W’s pistol:
On the subject of SIG’s Rose product line, the women in my family aren’t big fans of the cliche of pink products for “girls.” I generally like the wholistic product, training, and team building concept, but I think they’d have preferred purple, silver, or maybe platinum accents to make the pistol line a little more attractive without resorting to pink.
