^^^
I got a dealer exclusive Gen5 Glock like this w/ a Cerakoted frame. The backstraps included remained black, so when you put them on, they IMO defeat the purpose of having Cerakoted the frame in the first place.

[IMG:left] [/IMG]

A little something to keep this thread alive.

True. Magic is only real in the movies.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but after 3 years of carrying and shooting with a dot, I finally got an optic to fog today. It reminded me of this thread and I wanted to share.

I tried this back in January on page 10 and couldn't get my optic to fog. Today, however, it was 93 degrees and about 99% humidity...it's like being in Satan's fetid butthole out there.

I took both my P320 full-size with Sig Romeo 1 Pro and my P226 w/ Holosun 407K to the range, and when I was done I tossed them both in the back of the Durango. The A/C was cranked up really high, and apparently pointing right at the guns, because when I took them out at home they were both very cold to the touch. I was cleaning on my bench in the un-air-conditioned garage, and when I got to the P226, I observed that the Holosun was fogged up.

Interestingly, the Romeo never fogged, despite being exposed to the exact same conditions. I know Sig has been accused in the past of marketing what is basically a rebadged Holosun, but whatever coatings they are using on their glass must be superior.

I took the P226 slide outside and looked through the 407k. I could still see well enough through it for basic targeting, and the dot was clearly visible. It didn't take long out in the sun for the fogging to clear, either. It might have been more of an issue if I was in a dark environment, though.

I probably need to get some anti-fog stuff for the Holosun.

So the dot was never obstructed just the view through the window?

If so that’s no big deal since you should be shooting both eyes open and it basically becomes an OEG at that point, which should still work fine.

I do really appreciate info like this. I run a couple dotted guns and it’s good to understand what happens in various situations folks encounter.

I still PREFER to shoot irons but dots are absolutely a benefit.

quote:

So the dot was never obstructed just the view through the window?

If so that’s no big deal since you should be shooting both eyes open and it basically becomes an OEG at that point, which should still work fine

Correct. It wasn't ideal, but still usable.

Well, I'm convinced.

quote:

Originally posted by Grayguns:

For shooters with the fundamental skill to index the pistol & align iron sights upon presentation, between shots, and between targets, switching to a red dot is easy. The experiences of advisors and shooters who lack that basic skill set should be discounted and ignored. They simply aren’t relevant to the conversation.

The “three rounds, three seconds, three yards” factoid is unfounded Fuddlore horseshit. No actual data exists to support this supposed “typical gunfight” model.

That said, aiming is not the most decisive skill; presentation speed, grip and triggering are. Anyone can aim well enough. Few do so fast enough, and without moving the pistol off target as they pull the trigger. The red dot sight is a superb training tool for developing those skills and has no real negatives.

-Bruce

Lots of truth there. First, there are NO FBI stats on defensive shootings by armed civilians, that I could find. If someone can point me to it, I’d appreciate it. SD shootings are complex events involving moving targets at varying distances. Fuddlore bullshit is a good descriptor.

My son recently had leave. He’s a good shooter with sound fundamentals. Good teacher. Since he’s been deployed for 4 years, we’ve not shot together. Few months ago we shot and he had his very 1st first outing with a red dot pistol (my Glock 45 w/Trijicon RMR). He immediately took to it and was hitting targets faster, more consistently with a RD pistol than irons at all ranges. No instruction needed except “put the dot where you want to hit”.

5 minutes in, better with a RD, then after 20+ years of shooting nothing but irons on pistols. So the equal # of round to become as equally proficient with a RD that some suggest is utter bullshit.
Not even close and while everyone is not the same, a shooter with good fundamental skills to run irons shouldn’t take years or thousands of round to become proficient with a RD and exceed their performance over irons with a RD. Esp at distance. Sample of one? Anecdotal? No doubt, but thats exactly why I discount anything that sounds even remotely absolute regardless of the creds or Fudd level. But it was quite eye opening for me, the old adage “seeing is believing”.

The aiming observation reminds of a recent Colion Noir and Michelle Viscuzzi YT vid. In the vid Noir had video of him when he started shooting/competing and Michelle was laughing at him and said something to the effect of “you’re actually aiming”. Quite entertaining.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
Para is elderly and out of touch...

What gives you the idea that you have the right to say this here?

Tell me, and don't say that it was a joke.

I am neither elderly nor out of touch, but even if I were, it's not your place to say.

It's sarcasm, and I'm agreeing with you. I'm old by internet standards.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:

For 30ft? You guys are out of your fucking minds if you're going to rely on a battery and dot for that distance. Para is elderly and out of touch, but absolutely right on this.

30 feet, G19 and larger, full body sillhouette as your landing zone, yeah, sure.
30 feet, subcompact or smaller with a short sight radius, and you're holding to a 4-6 inch odd shape area placement within the sillhouette, dot every day of the week. Add low light, it is airplanes vs blimps.

Just for fun, I've got some more electronic sights on handguns now. They sure are cool. Do they have practical use in high stress situations? Eh.... if someone trains?

Target? Gee, cool! Actual defensive use? I remain a skeptic. Anybody sold on RMR etc, better fucking train because without practice you've bought yourself a distraction not an advantage.

Winners wipe with Catcrap®!

quote:

That said, aiming is not the most decisive skill; presentation speed, grip and triggering are. Anyone can aim well enough. Few do so fast enough, and without moving the pistol off target as they pull the trigger. The red dot sight is a superb training tool for developing those skills and has no real negatives

Completely agree. One of the reasons I always find my way back to my HK P2000s is just how presentable and pointable they are to me. I can draw and present eyes closed with them and be sight aligned on target. While I can draw and present most any gun nothing I’ve found is as natural to me.

One of the reasons I never saw all the consternation with pistol dots is I’ve always shot both eyes open and I’ve long since been able to draw and present just about anything passably enough to have a dot in window as well as enough recoil control/grip to not lose/not be able to require a dot when shooting.

All that said I still like the “throw it in a go bag and forget about it” so to speak mentality of iron sights. Dots absolutely help a mediocre shooter like me at anything 15yards and beyond in both speed and accuracy and there is no debate (for me not I am not speaking for others) but I still prefer irons in general terms. I like them not because of performance but because of simplicity and for my uses as a purely defensive, get OUT of trouble, gun irons work perfectly well for me at this point in my life. I do however have an optic on my bedside gun as well as gun I carry from time to time so I run both. I’ve said it before I am an agnostic shooter no one caliber, platform or technology is my God . If it’s got a trigger and safely expels a projectile I’m all good.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
Winners wipe with Catcrap®!

Yeah, I probably need to do that. At the Sig RDO instructor course, they told us not to use anything but a cotton swab with alcohol to clean the glass, because other chemicals could harm the coatings. That's been my approach for all my optics to date, and it works quite well on the Sig ones. I'll have to get some catcrap for the Holosuns.

quote:

Originally posted by Parabellum:
Well, I'm convinced.

I'm not necessarily trying to convince anybody that they need to embrace the dot, just sharing some observations. We have them on our duty guns and they've worked out quite well for those of us willing to put in the time to learn them and extra effort to regularly maintain them. I've seen distinct advantages as a training tool and in dynamic scenarios.

That said, my regular personal carry gun isn't wearing one, I'd never put one on a backcountry woods gun, and sticking one on a pocket gun is outright counterproductive in my mind. I absolutely agree you don't need it, but it can be a useful tool in the right context. If nothing else, it's a new element of this whole gun hobby that's interesting to learn about and work through issues together as they arise.

quote:

I'm not necessarily trying to convince anybody that they need to embrace the dot, just sharing some observations.

Please keep sharing. I find the information useful, even if for only to "log for a later date" so to speak.

quote:

If nothing else, it's a new element of this whole gun hobby that's interesting to learn about and work through issues together as they arise..

THIS...so much this.

I keep practicing with the RDS but I can still use the irons and hit the target faster with those. Perhaps that's a function of being older, I don't know.

I like playing with the RDS sights (green, not red) at the range. But I see little chance of getting "good enough" to depend on an RDS for carry.

Hope to go shoot a bit tomorrow since I picked up a little 45acp the other day.

Bob

I put a Holosun SCS ,on a Glk 19 gen 5 it fit perfect , it does co witness with the fact sights but after being on the gun for over a year I think it does slow me down I can make good hits with it but if I don`t use it for a while you still look for the green dot , which is always there never a on or off problem, you can see it in any light , I don`t think I will put another on any thing else !!!

I feel much better that I'm still all old school with no e-sights on my P229R.

I was recently at a training class and a lady shooter who was pretty much a novice was struggling to get decent accuracy. I could see as I watched her shoot doing what I nicknamed “Betty bifocal” moving her head up and down ( really flexing or extending her neck) or even pushing the gun more out or bringing it in closer in an effort to get a sight picture .
The instructor grabbed a pistol with a dot, and immediately her accuracy dramatically improved as did her speed, which gave her a huge confidence boost, and that resulted in her getting much better as things went on.

I guess it comes down to in reality like any other modification you make to your gun or technique what works for some doesn’t work for others.

quote:

I guess it comes down to in reality like any other modification you make to your gun or technique what works for some doesn’t work for others.

NO SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST WRONG!!!!!!

I mean that’s how the internet and world works today right. .

Do you think you might manage to work out your little problem before too long? Because you're beginning to bore me.

You should go back and read the first post in this thread. Read what I posted.

And, yes, actually- in this life, some people are just wrong, and this is not limited to just the world "today". It's always been like that.

I found this article that I thought was interesting:

https://pistolwizard.com/guide...red-dots-for-pistols

From the article this:

"Pistol Red Dot vs. Iron Sights: Final Verdict

Red dots gave well-trained shooters better accuracy at the same speed as iron sights.
Accuracy with a pistol is key to stopping threats quickly.
Accuracy gains mainly came from training and practice.
A red dot and some training are valuable investments for self-defense. If you can only afford one, get the training.
If you have eyesight issues and can't use iron sights, a laser sight is good if you don't have training."

Personally, I am much more accurate with the red dot when shooting at paper.