Thanks for fessing up and giving us a chance to learn from your experience. I will take your post to heart as this could very easily happen to me if I get the slightest bit complacent.

As for the folks here that pile on these people who have the courage to share their mistakes I'm reminded of a line from The Great Gatsby:
"Experience keeps a dear school, and fools will learn in no other".

I did not mean to come across as "piling on" to the OP and for that I apologize.

I was just trying to wrap my head around the whole loaded vs unloaded magazine issue from the OP and I could imagine if one was in a hurry or not paying attention, this could easily be done.

I'm almost OCD about racking the slide 6-7 times on a magazine drop and peering and often even sticking my finger in there to ensure an empty chamber.

I've had done one negligent discharge. I was in a rifle match, pushed for time and struggling with the course of fire, thought I cleared the AR15, but only cleared the mag. Finger touches trigger, rifle go boom, bullet impacts the side of a mountain.

To be frank, there's no excuse for any negligent discharge. There was no excuse for mine. We have the four rules of gun safety, which all of us should be able to recite while in a coma. Violate one rule, maybe nothing happens. Violate two or more rules, and very likely a big problem occurs.

So it's not just "always in a safe direction" -- there are three other rules that must be followed at all times, too.

I get incredibly irritated at myself when I violate any of the 4 safety rules. I get really concerned when I see others around me violate a rule. Or a combination of rules.

Let's be vigilant.

quote:

Originally posted by jaaron11:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
A magazine with a round still in it looks very different than an empty one, how did you miss that?

Not the OP, but your eyes can play tricks on you, especially if you give a half glance and don't look closely. If you expect to see an empty magazine, your brain may well ignore the round at the top and register it as an empty magazine. Basically, replacing the real image with your anticipated image.

There are several factors at play, and like any incident chain, they're all important.

How did I manage to pick up a magazine with a round in it? It weighed differently than an empty magazine. The round is clearly visible if one examines the magazine. It's true that one should be able to tell the difference, and I can tell the difference. But I didn't. And that's the important thing here.

First and foremost, the way I managed to get a magazine with ammunition in it into the pistol was having a magazine with ammunition in it available. When working on a pistol, or any firearm, ammunition shouldn't be in the same room; no ammo, no chance. That's a perfect world. This particular room, my daughter's old room, is my study; it's got my desk, my powder and reloading components, boxed ammunition, a safe, etc. I'm not as concerned about ammunition in the room, but ammunition in an available magazine in the same room, if manipulating the pistol or performing dry firing, is a poor idea. More to the point, it was my poor idea.

Confirmation bias. We see what we want to see. I wanted to see an empty magazine. It was further confirmed by the fact that I'd been doing dry firing repeatedly, and KNEW I had an empty firearm, and I'd been doing magazine insertions with an empty magazine, and KNEW I had an empty magazine. It was further confirmed by locking back the slide, inserting my finger into the chamber area and visually checking, and feeling an empty chamber, upturning the pistol to insert my finger into an empty mag well, visually watching as I lowered the slide onto an empty chamber, and then pressing the trigger with the muzzle in a safe direction. I was done.

Except that I popped the empty magazine in and out a few more times, practiced reloading. Somewhere in that process, focused on the pistol, I picked up a loaded magazine, inserted it and did one more quick chamber check. I visually saw the chamber empty. I lowered the slide, pointed it in a safe direction, and pressed the trigger. I became immediately aware of the chambered round, because the pistol discharged.

I saw what I expected to see. I did what I expected to do. Having just performed a series of dry firing exercises, I was absolutely sure the firearm was empty, confirmed visually and by feeling the pistol. I'd visually verified the magazine was empty. It just wasn't the magazine that ended up in the weapon.

Yes, I'm a dumbass. I'm a wiser dumbass, but a dumbass all the same. And today I have to patch a hole in the wall, which cost some pride, some embarrassment, half a box of rations, a little bit of my hearing (the little bit of what's left), and twenty bucks for the wall...but yielded a learning experience.

Rather than waste it on a dumbass who just shot a hole in his wall, I elected to share it here.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:

I'm almost OCD about racking the slide 6-7 times on a magazine drop and peering and often even sticking my finger in there to ensure an empty chamber.

So was I, and I did. It happened anyway.

I do know that had the magazine not been available in the same room, it couldn't have happened. I do know that had I not inserted a magazine in the pistol after clearing it and pressing the trigger on an empty chamber, it couldn't have happened. I do now that had I not done a last chamber check with a magazine inserted, it couldn't have happened. I do know it's a very wise practice to have ammunition in another room when dry firing. I just didn't do it.

Hopefully the end result is a wiser dumbass.

Well, the good news is that everyone is safe. And, now you know you don't need to worry about overpenetration in your house!

Look at it this way, although some rules were violated you didn't violate the cardinal one. Repetitive actions DO become reflexive. When I dry fire practice I always make sure that I do something else between end of dry fire and reloading firearm just for this reason, especially if I have been working on reloads. I go get a drink from the kitchen or have a brief conversation with my wife. Then I go back and reload and holster. I have to make my mind do a reset.

It kinda sounds like you stopped practicing and started playing with your gun.

I am glad every thing turned out okay.
For me this post is a good reminder of the rules.
It gets me thinking that it will help others.

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
It kinda sounds like you stopped practicing and started playing with your gun.

It was never really a practice to begin with. It was a change of grip modules, slides, and then installation of flat triggers. Then some time dry firing the triggers, which evolved into press-outs and dry firing in general, then some reloads, more press-outs and time with the trigger, reset, etc. Practice, but the principle purpose originally was to swap some parts around and lube.

Had a friend do this several years ago. Put a hole in the ceiling and the waterbed in the room above.
Rather difficult to hide the hole from his wife.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveR2012:
Had a friend do this several years ago. Put a hole in the ceiling and the waterbed in the room above.
Rather difficult to hide the hole from his wife.

Particularly if there was water pouring through it

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:

quote:

Originally posted by BuddyChryst:
It kinda sounds like you stopped practicing and started playing with your gun.

It was never really a practice to begin with. It was a change of grip modules, slides, and then installation of flat triggers. Then some time dry firing the triggers, which evolved into press-outs and dry firing in general, then some reloads, more press-outs and time with the trigger, reset, etc. Practice, but the principle purpose originally was to swap some parts around and lube.

Mission creep, pure and simple, with no plan.

It happens, my man. I had to replace an entire tile floor because it couldn't be fixed.

Carpet is more forgiving, trust me. There's a lot of gun enthusiasts who've done similar and don't admit it. The best lessons are learned by mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

Mission creep, pure and simple, with no plan.

Pretty much.

Falls under the category "seemed like a good idea at the time."

I once watched a guy chop the side of his car up with the propeller on a Piper Cherokee he was rebuilding. He was retired, and this was his bucket project. It had a new engine and prop. It wasn't ready to fly. He came out to work on it, did whatever he had to do, and when I asked him about it later, he said that once inside, he couldn't resist starting the engine and running it, for just a moment.

The fact that his car was parked in front never crossed his mind.

The sideview mirror went sailing right over a tall metal quanset and nearly beaned a guy on the fuel truck on the other side. Very impressive.

No game plan. Pretty much like that.

When I was a kid, I logged a flight as "joy riding" when I came back from looking at the fall leaves in the mountains. An instructor saw that and had a fit. He told me I'd better have a plan every time I went out; have something to do, even if it was just looking at leaves; plan the flight, fly the plan, that sort of thing. It became a habit.

Just not with dry firing, apparently.

Tell me you hit peanut butter instead of jalepeno cheese!

Stuff happens as they say. You aren't the first or last person who has done it. The best thing is to stack the deck in your favor so if/when something happens your only left feeling dumb instead of worse. I have an old bullet proof vest for dry fire for disassembly and practice. You can probably find one cheap used as most places dump them after the listed 5 years. Obviously the point isn't to try it out but it should catch anything in case something happens. Provided you aren't dryfiring your Barrett.

quote:

Originally posted by jaaron11:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
A magazine with a round still in it looks very different than an empty one, how did you miss that?

Not the OP, but your eyes can play tricks on you, especially if you give a half glance and don't look closely. If you expect to see an empty magazine, your brain may well ignore the round at the top and register it as an empty magazine. Basically, replacing the real image with your anticipated image.

I’ve had two or three ND’s over the years. They were ALWAYS the result of not checking the chamber. Thankfully in each and every instance I was observing the always point the gun in a safe direction.

Now, as to how you not see a round in the chamber? I had an instructor who made us lock the slide back and stick a finger in the chamber. His reasoning was your mind will see what you want to see, and fingering the chamber will prove otherwise in case of a mistake.

I just wanted to post in this thread another thank you.
I was cleaning and function checking a couple of my AR's last night and made damned sure to remove any loaded mags and loose ammo from the area I was going to be working in.

I was fortunate to have my ND when I was a teen with a 22 rifle.

I wasn't being safe and it cost me patching & painting 2 sides of a wall and the ceiling.

It taught me an invaluable lesson and now it's look, touch, look whenever I'm prepping for dry fire or MX.

Welp, as long as we're at the confessional... I've had two...

The first was in 1989. I was about 22, at home and messing with the first handgun I'd ever bought, a Sig P226. I was sitting in my room (college kid still at home) and watching TV, dry firing my new gun absentmindedly while whatever was on TV was playing. My pop walks in (hardcore S&W wheelgunner and career Texas Highway Patrol Captain)and says in his John Wayne-like drawl, "Is that your new 'electric pistol'? Lemme see it..." I hand it to him, slide locked back for safety. The mags were loaded on my desk on the other side of the room. He fooled with it a bit, then said "Strange gun" and handed it back to me.

I was engrossed in the TV show and did not notice that he'd loaded a mag and chambered a round. At the time, I was using Remington 115 grain +P+ JHP's. He handed it back to me and left the room. A commercial break comes on and I level the Sig at a "TJ Hooker" model squad car that I'd built several years before, took careful aim at the grill and slowly pulled off a dry fire shot.

Except it wasn't a dry fire. It was like an atomic bomb going off in that small room with pieces of MPC plastic model debris flying at every conceivable angle at Mach speed, all over the place. No doubt my eyes were doing cartoon wide-eye blinky-blinks, but my ears were certainly ringing harshly, pierced by a high pitched, steam-like whistle crossed with a six-year old girl screaming. It hurt.

I put the mighty Sig down on the bedspread to assess the damage. The presswood shelf that ol' TJ's car was on had shattered into the crumbly little clumps that presswood always breaks up into and there was a noticeable, sizeable hole in the cardboard backing of the shelf. Behind that was a nickel-sized hole piecing the sheetrock, then about half an inch below was a quarter-sized hole where it came back out. The round had gone through the wall and bounced off the heavy porcelain bathtub in the next room and then bounced right back out and landed on the carpet behind the shelf. I had the mangled bullet for years, not sure what happened to it. However, lesson not quite learned.

Timewarp to the summer of 1992. I'd gotten back from an 8-hour session at the gunrange, on a very hot, Texas Panhandle, August day. I was sweating, tired, exhausted, headachy and just wanted a shower. At the time, I kept my handguns in very heavy duty old hunting socks, the grey kind with the thick red stripes at the top (your Granddad had some, I bet), and I was unloading all my handguns from a big carry bag.

I pulled out a S&W m28, still in the sock, and put my finger on the trigger. I have absolutely no idea why I pulled the trigger...heat, exhaustion, I don't know. TJ Hooker taught me never to assume a gun was unloaded. But I forgot my previous lesson and pulled it anyway, forgetting that before I'd left the range, I'd loaded six Federal Hi-Shok 125 grain .357 Magnum SJHP rounds into the old retired THP gun.

The BOOM that gun made in the living room of my small apartment was the single loudest noise I have ever heard in my life, and that includes standing directly under a B1 bomber as it hit the afterburners at 1000 feet (felt like 100) at a University of Texas football game flyover.

The room was filled with the foam and dust from the guts my furnished apartment's cheap rented couch, as the round went through a seat cushion and the back padding. I couldn't hear for about 5 minutes. When my vision came back (seems like a few minutes later but was probably 15 seconds), I looked down and the only part of the nylon hunting sock that was left was what was covered by my gun hand, on the grips; the blast and heat from the barrel and forcing cone literally flash-melted the entire sock and whatever was left was floating in the air with the particles of the very recently murdered couch.

After regaining my composure and placing the mighty Highway Patrolman on the coffee table, I moved back the deceased sofa and saw that the round had gone into the sheetrock, bounced off the inside of the exterior brick wall (I had an apartment at the end of the building, thank Heavens, no one next door), and came back out at just the right angle to strike the nail-studded wooden strip that holds the carpet down at the bottom of the wall. The wood was totally pulverized for about a foot in each direction, looked almost like pencil shavings. It was further splintered for another two feet or so. Not much left of the round at that point.

I saw my Pop a bit later that week and relayed the story about killing my couch and he replied "Ain't one plastic black and white cruiser enough to teach ya'? Now you gotta' start whacking furniture?"

I didn't bother to say it was he that'd loaded my Sig without telling me, helping to cause the first Kaboom!, because he'd of rightly pointed out the second Kaboom! was alllllllll mine.

But I've not had one since. Some learn fast, it took me a TJ Hooker Dodge Monaco and a cheap, ugly rented sofa to get there, but I did.
But hey, we learn by doing, right?