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LAPD’s new duty gun…an FN??!!?? Login/Join 
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Although I’ve never heard the term used in that way before, by “neuter,” I assume that’s a reference to converting the revolvers to double action only (DAO), i.e., they couldn’t be manually cocked to fire in the single action mode.

Although I didn’t know enough then to take notes or look into the details, at one time S&W offered a DAO option for some of its revolvers. I assume that that was accomplished by eliminating the features of the hammer, and/or possibly the trigger, that made it possible for the hammer to stay cocked when thumbed back manually. In that regard it would have been similar in idea at least to SIG’s DAO hammers for the Classic line pistols: the single action cocking notch was eliminated.

Without the projection on the S&W hammer that engaged the corresponding part of the trigger, the hammer wouldn’t stay cocked and would simply fall forward to the normal rest position when released. That would make it possible to fire the revolver only in the double action mode unless the gun were operated in something similar to “fanning” with a revolver like the Colt Single Action Army.




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 44188 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
the FNP, FNX and FNS were all crap


Why is the FNX 'crap'?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,


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"Physics is like politics. It puts real effort into fighting imaginary forces." --- Fortnine
 
Posts: 12857 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Regarding the DAO Smith revolvers, I wouldn't be surprised if the Model 67's arrived that way at the academy from S/W. Having said that, our Range folks were very good and perhaps they did it.

No, once Neutered, you wouldn't be able to cock the hammer and fire it, single action. The term Neuter was a common term we used on job for a revolver modified this way. But we were the same people that called a wino holding a wine bottle to be called holding a 'short dog'..

If I remember correctly, I had to bring my .38 back up to the LAPD Academy range to have it neutered in order to carry it but I could be incorrect and perhaps I had to have it done elsewhere. They did check our backups to make sure we were in compliance.

I may be incorrect because I'm not a revolver smith but I believe they had to remove or modify some tiny bar in the revolver in order to get it DAO only. It was many, many years ago, just don't remember.
 
Posts: 842 | Location: Federal Way, WA (It's a city not prison) | Registered: September 11, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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HCM, you stated "the FNP, FNX and FNS were all  crap."
What was/is wrong with the FNX series that makes them crappy?

Edited to explain: I bought an FNX-45, mostly for competitions, and as a vehicle for my suppressor and for learning to use RDS's on defensive pistols.

But I could press it into more serious service, so if there is a problem with dependability, I'd like to know.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RichardC,


_____________________
"Physics is like politics. It puts real effort into fighting imaginary forces." --- Fortnine
 
Posts: 12857 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Whack-Job
Whisperer
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Not HCM but I have a bit of experience with FN handguns Richard. We have an FN 509 and a new single stack FN 503 in the rental case at the range I work for. The 509 easily has over 10K rounds through it - with VERY minimal cleaning or maintenance. It runs like a Timex. No issues. No failures. None.

The FN 503 is newer. Only been in the case for a little over a month. Probably 3K+ round through it. Same same. No maintenance or cleaning. No problems.

Both guns get a mixed review on how they feel in the hand. The average review for the 509 ergonimics being "Meh...". So far, folks uniformly dislike the feel of the 503. Likening it to holding a plank. BUT - everyone who shoots it likes the trigger and is astounded by the little guns accuracy. Myself included. Lots of us who have no real attraction to FN products are impressed by the 503 and may buy one.

I have shot the FNX45 several times. Mostly customers guns who claimed it wasn't accurate. It is VERY accurate. I do recall an issue with an FNX45 involving Remington ammo. The FNX45 refused to eat it. Constant FTEs and FTFs. And the gun was clean and lubed. I suspect it was an ammo related issue. NOT a gun problem. Those pistols seem to run reliably with every other manufacturers ammo. Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI


7+1 Rounds of hope and change
 
Posts: 4084 | Registered: August 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardC:
HCM, you stated "the FNP, FNX and FNS were all  crap."
What was/is wrong with the FNX series that makes them crappy?

Edited to explain: I bought an FNX-45, mostly for competitions, and as a vehicle for my suppressor and for learning to use RDS's on defensive pistols.

But I could press it into more serious service, so if there is a problem with dependability, I'd like to know.


The good thing about the FNX was it was the first factory handgun with RDS mount.

Like the FNP they have reliability issues with some common ammo types and the polymer used in the frame is soft enough that a firm grip can induce malfunctions. This is aggravated when the gun is exposed to heat - like being left in a car or out in the TX summer sun.

It’s better than the FNP and unlike the FNS it is mechanically safe but I would not use one for anything serious.
 
Posts: 492 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 18DAI:
Not HCM but I have a bit of experience with FN handguns Richard. We have an FN 509 and a new single stack FN 503 in the rental case at the range I work for. The 509 easily has over 10K rounds through it - with VERY minimal cleaning or maintenance. It runs like a Timex. No issues. No failures. None.

The FN 503 is newer. Only been in the case for a little over a month. Probably 3K+ round through it. Same same. No maintenance or cleaning. No problems.

Both guns get a mixed review on how they feel in the hand. The average review for the 509 ergonimics being "Meh...". So far, folks uniformly dislike the feel of the 503. Likening it to holding a plank. BUT - everyone who shoots it likes the trigger and is astounded by the little guns accuracy. Myself included. Lots of us who have no real attraction to FN products are impressed by the 503 and may buy one.

I have shot the FNX45 several times. Mostly customers guns who claimed it wasn't accurate. It is VERY accurate. I do recall an issue with an FNX45 involving Remington ammo. The FNX45 refused to eat it. Constant FTEs and FTFs. And the gun was clean and lubed. I suspect it was an ammo related issue. NOT a gun problem. Those pistols seem to run reliably with every other manufacturers ammo. Hope this helps! Regards 18DAI


Feelings lie. I don’t care what a gun feels like in the hand, I care about quantifiable results measures via timers and scored targets.

For example, with modular grip guns I’ve found that when I measure performance with each of the grip sizes, the grip size that “feels” best is not necessarily the size that delivers the best performance.
 
Posts: 492 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I read a somewhat interesting article last night about how the Glock 19 came to be as the standard issue pistol at SOCOM. The author claimed to be 3rd Special Forces Group I think.

Long and short, his version was that the big Army would not let SOCOM choose the 17 because of the “why it’s the same size as the M9” argument. So, they wanted Glock so the went around the big army by choosing the 19 as a compact pistol.

This however doesn’t track with what LAV, Kyle Dafoor and some others have openly discussed that the 19 was the better choice (over the 17) from a shooters perspective. Glock even went with the shorter slide 19x in the last round of pistol offerings.

The 19 size slide tracks more efficiently at speed. In the Glock, it’s about as good as it gets. Add in a MRDS and you remove the need for that extra half inch or inch size slide/ barrel difference completely.

I think the shorter barrel and slide are just more desirably at the end of the day. A lot of the companies see the continued success of Glock and the 19 and have to figure if it ain’t broke, stop trying to fix it.


Glock 19’s have been in SOCOM for while. I saw them in 02-03 and my son was issued one (AF CCT) in 2010.


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Posts: 1879 | Location: DFW | Registered: December 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JR78:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I read a somewhat interesting article last night about how the Glock 19 came to be as the standard issue pistol at SOCOM. The author claimed to be 3rd Special Forces Group I think.

Long and short, his version was that the big Army would not let SOCOM choose the 17 because of the “why it’s the same size as the M9” argument. So, they wanted Glock so the went around the big army by choosing the 19 as a compact pistol.

This however doesn’t track with what LAV, Kyle Dafoor and some others have openly discussed that the 19 was the better choice (over the 17) from a shooters perspective. Glock even went with the shorter slide 19x in the last round of pistol offerings.

The 19 size slide tracks more efficiently at speed. In the Glock, it’s about as good as it gets. Add in a MRDS and you remove the need for that extra half inch or inch size slide/ barrel difference completely.

I think the shorter barrel and slide are just more desirably at the end of the day. A lot of the companies see the continued success of Glock and the 19 and have to figure if it ain’t broke, stop trying to fix it.


Glock 19’s have been in SOCOM for while. I saw them in 02-03 and my son was issued one (AF CCT) in 2010.

Glocks in SOF armories pre-date 9/11. JSOC units were purchasing G22's for awhile as the .40 wave was in full-effect and police agencies made the conversion. As 9mm ammo improved and sustained combat pressure tested and clarified equipment needs, the 9mm returned back into the fold, the G17, 19 & 26 was not uncommon amongst SOF units, as assignments and mission necessitated unique acquisitions. As concealabilty and the realities of side-arms within semi-permissive environments became the drivers, modifications like cutting the grip on a G17 to G19 magazine size came about.

Circa 2015-16, USASOC and SOCOM began to clarify its future small arms needs and unit tables, the G19 became official issue. The 19 size lent itself to concealabilty for a wider range of body types, and its lighter-weight was positively received over the M9/92F (common issue amongst all non-darkside SOF units). I've been able to observe and interact with several classes at Special Force SOFIC school, CIF/CRF units and the US Army Special Operations Command International Sniper Competition and every one I spoke with was pleased with the move to the 19, besides reliability and durability, weight and size was the biggest comment.
 
Posts: 11796 | Location: Wine Country | Registered: September 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by corsair:
quote:
Originally posted by JR78:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
I read a somewhat interesting article last night about how the Glock 19 came to be as the standard issue pistol at SOCOM. The author claimed to be 3rd Special Forces Group I think.

Long and short, his version was that the big Army would not let SOCOM choose the 17 because of the “why it’s the same size as the M9” argument. So, they wanted Glock so the went around the big army by choosing the 19 as a compact pistol.

This however doesn’t track with what LAV, Kyle Dafoor and some others have openly discussed that the 19 was the better choice (over the 17) from a shooters perspective. Glock even went with the shorter slide 19x in the last round of pistol offerings.

The 19 size slide tracks more efficiently at speed. In the Glock, it’s about as good as it gets. Add in a MRDS and you remove the need for that extra half inch or inch size slide/ barrel difference completely.

I think the shorter barrel and slide are just more desirably at the end of the day. A lot of the companies see the continued success of Glock and the 19 and have to figure if it ain’t broke, stop trying to fix it.


Glock 19’s have been in SOCOM for while. I saw them in 02-03 and my son was issued one (AF CCT) in 2010.

Glocks in SOF armories pre-date 9/11. JSOC units were purchasing G22's for awhile as the .40 wave was in full-effect and police agencies made the conversion. As 9mm ammo improved and sustained combat pressure tested and clarified equipment needs, the 9mm returned back into the fold, the G17, 19 & 26 was not uncommon amongst SOF units, as assignments and mission necessitated unique acquisitions. As concealabilty and the realities of side-arms within semi-permissive environments became the drivers, modifications like cutting the grip on a G17 to G19 magazine size came about.

Circa 2015-16, USASOC and SOCOM began to clarify its future small arms needs and unit tables, the G19 became official issue. The 19 size lent itself to concealabilty for a wider range of body types, and its lighter-weight was positively received over the M9/92F (common issue amongst all non-darkside SOF units). I've been able to observe and interact with several classes at Special Force SOFIC school, CIF/CRF units and the US Army Special Operations Command International Sniper Competition and every one I spoke with was pleased with the move to the 19, besides reliability and durability, weight and size was the biggest comment.


Yup.

Two minor points:

The older .40 Glocks often got converted to 9mm via aftermarket slides and ejector swaps since they were “in the system” and could easily be returned to original condition. My understanding is this was the Genesis of some of the first aftermarket optics ready slides such as the Unity Tactical slides.

SOCOM was buying Gen3 G19s for a long time. Since somewhere in the mid 2000s (05/06/07?). And later Gen 3 Glock MOS guns which, AFAIK were never a commercial item, I believe 15/16 was when they transitioned from the Gen 3s to the G19 MOS Gen4 and the G26 Gen4 as the Mk26/MK27.
 
Posts: 492 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This article provides more details of the LAPD testing process which resulted in the selection of the 509.

It’s interesting that in addition to duty and standard FMJ training amp, the test specifically included non toxic ammo. IME non toxic / frangible ammo is very hard on guns.

https://www.police1.com/police...BkSQueiIoMtK9B18Xg58
 
Posts: 492 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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LAPD had a wide latitude of pistols in service. Was not uncommon to travel around the city and spot anything from Berettas to Smiths in officers holsters. Interesting to see what this selection changes? The real news is NYPD, moving away from the horrendous 12lb trigger on their Glocks, now issuing ones with standard 5lb trigger weight..


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Posts: 13033 | Location: VIrtual | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by parabellum:
quote:
Originally posted by iron chef:
When were 509s $350?
When you could sque
eze the frame like Gummy Bears. Wink


FN offered a deal that LEO firearms instructors (and some others) could buy these for $350. I bought one, shot it a bit, seemed reliable, never an issue that way. I just wasn't that impressed with it. It spends its time in my RV now. I carry an FN .45T for work, and I like it, but the 509 just didn't do it for me.
 
Posts: 362 | Location: idaho | Registered: May 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It will fit perfectly in the hands of all those wonderful social workers....


Those who forget history are destined to repeat it.
 
Posts: 298 | Location: Florida | Registered: November 24, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by HCM:
SOCOM was buying Gen3 G19s for a long time. Since somewhere in the mid 2000s (05/06/07?). And later Gen 3 Glock MOS guns which, AFAIK were never a commercial item, I believe 15/16 was when they transitioned from the Gen 3s to the G19 MOS Gen4 and the G26 Gen4 as the Mk26/MK27.


Do you have a cite on this by chance?




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Posts: 35353 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by CQB60:
LAPD had a wide latitude of pistols in service. Was not uncommon to travel around the city and spot anything from Berettas to Smiths in officers holsters. Interesting to see what this selection changes?

As someone else posted, this simply replaces what's issued to academy graduates. The roster of what can be used are all the other previously issued pistols in the past few decades. S&W was the long time issued brand from revolvers up to the 39 & 45-series, Beretta 92's were issued through the 80's, then to Glock's with the 40mm, as 9mm became popular again the Glocks continued to be issued.

Because LAPD is a massive dept with a variety of units that have purchasing power, there's a handful of models that are available only to those assigned to those units or, are qualified on it. Managing their logistics and their table of equipment is daunting. With optics becoming more common, training becoming standardized, and given the numbers they'll purchase, LAPD is looking to get a pistol that stays ahead of the curve. On the flip-side, CHP will likely be one of the last agencies that'll authorize use of an optic, as they're notoriously conservative and slow moving when it comes to firearm currency.
 
Posts: 11796 | Location: Wine Country | Registered: September 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Love to know the SIS budget Wink Good stuff Corsair, Ty
quote:
Originally posted by corsair:
quote:
Originally posted by CQB60:
LAPD had a wide latitude of pistols in service. Was not uncommon to travel around the city and spot anything from Berettas to Smiths in officers holsters. Interesting to see what this selection changes?

As someone else posted, this simply replaces what's issued to academy graduates. The roster of what can be used are all the other previously issued pistols in the past few decades. S&W was the long time issued brand from revolvers up to the 39 & 45-series, Beretta 92's were issued through the 80's, then to Glock's with the 40mm, as 9mm became popular again the Glocks continued to be issued.

Because LAPD is a massive dept with a variety of units that have purchasing power, there's a handful of models that are available only to those assigned to those units or, are qualified on it. Managing their logistics and their table of equipment is daunting. With optics becoming more common, training becoming standardized, and given the numbers they'll purchase, LAPD is looking to get a pistol that stays ahead of the curve. On the flip-side, CHP will likely be one of the last agencies that'll authorize use of an optic, as they're notoriously conservative and slow moving when it comes to firearm currency.


______________________________________________
“ Ideals are peaceful. History is violent.“
 
Posts: 13033 | Location: VIrtual | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I was the LEO quoted by HCM earlier in the thread. Since then, my now-former department has transitioned to Glock 17's and 19's plus a G-26 for the "chief", the weight of whose duties precludes him from carrying a duty pistol. His duties also preclude him from carrying handcuffs, magazines, OC spray, or a body-worn camera (though doom on anyone else who isn't recording as required0. Thread drift done...

Rockville City (MD) was one of the four agencies I know of that went with the FNS in one flavor or another. All of them (Baltimore County, Hillsborough County, and Arizona DPS have since transitioned to the Glock.

Before the transition to Glock, an unintentional discharge occurred in the locker room. Details are scarce to me, at least, but it seems the probationary officer was not blamed for the UD Given the chief's draconian record of discipline, it seems that the officer may not have been negligent, or given the chief's dubious ethics, he may have mot disciplined the officer to help gain Mayor and Council approval for the transition.

I've never shot an FN-509, but the ones I've handled seem more solid than the FNS-9 piece of cra I carried for a few years.
 
Posts: 22 | Registered: December 08, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Stupid
Allergy
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There’s not an accuracy issue with my FNX Tactical. It shoots like a laser and has yet to complain about anything I’ve fed it. Granted that’s my only experience with FN. If someone is having accuracy issues with this gun, it’s the shooter. I’ve shown this before, but below is a box of 50 at 12yrds.






"Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway." Steve McQueen...
 
Posts: 6240 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: July 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Blackwater
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I handled a 509 recently. Grip is much better than previous FN's.

But, who the hell did T&E on the mag release?
That is a horrible design!


Joe
 
Posts: 2368 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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