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Range reports: Swiss P210-5LS, German P210 Super Target Ag 5, and American P210A-TGT Login/Join 
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DSgrouse:
Wow, thank you. Any idea how this compares to the x5 series?

The thread is long expired, but a member posted the results of a Ransom rest group test of several Swiss and German P210s, and one X5 L1. The result: all pistols produced similar group sizes. But the single best group was shot from the X5.

Sure wish that I'd copied that thread.



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 9691 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Bone 4 Tuna
Picture of jjkroll32
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Some fine pistols and fine shooting too!

Thank you for the thoughtful update.


_________________________
An unarmed man can only flee from evil and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it. - Col Jeff Cooper

NRA Life Member

Long Live the Super Thirty-Eight
 
Posts: 11160 | Location: Mid-Michigan | Registered: October 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
quote:
Originally posted by DSgrouse:
Wow, thank you. Any idea how this compares to the x5 series?

The thread is long expired, but a member posted the results of a Ransom rest group test of several Swiss and German P210s, and one X5 L1. The result: all pistols produced similar group sizes. But the single best group was shot from the X5.

Sure wish that I'd copied that thread.


Thanks for the info.
 
Posts: 6633 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 23, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Absolutely Positively-
Retired
Picture of ace73
posted Hide Post
[quote]Position: standing, 2 hands, with gun grips rested on bench.
[quote]


Q, great post.....but I'm trying to visualize this as my indoor range has the bench at 32"!
 
Posts: 1187 | Location: Detroit/Downriver | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ace73:
[quote]Position: standing, 2 hands, with gun grips rested on bench.
[quote]


Q, great post.....but I'm trying to visualize this as my indoor range has the bench at 32"!

Sorry, should have been clearer. Standing and crouching and the same time, so I could be at the level of the platform. Smile


Q






 
Posts: 28196 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of JBird679
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
The thread is long expired, but a member posted the results of a Ransom rest group test of several Swiss and German P210s, and one X5 L1. The result: all pistols produced similar group sizes. But the single best group was shot from the X5.

Sure wish that I'd copied that thread.

I think you may be referring to this?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...curate-pistols-part/
 
Posts: 987 | Location: Upstate, SC | Registered: March 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oriental Redneck
Picture of 12131
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JBird679:
quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
The thread is long expired, but a member posted the results of a Ransom rest group test of several Swiss and German P210s, and one X5 L1. The result: all pistols produced similar group sizes. But the single best group was shot from the X5.

Sure wish that I'd copied that thread.

I think you may be referring to this?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...curate-pistols-part/

That wasn't it.


Q






 
Posts: 28196 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: September 04, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I have two P49 Swiss Military P210-2 ,as well as the Legend, Super Target and a P226X6 PPC. I shoot all regularly with 125 gr cast lead bullets ( my own) and have never encountered a problem, some minor leading which was easily removed. I have not noticed any change in grouping when switching back to jacketed bullets. I guess the secret is to clean your barrel regularly! Just a note, some of my cast bullets have given me the best groups at 25 meters!
FYI the powder used is shilouette 5.0 grains


quote:
Originally posted by OTD:
quote:
Originally posted by David Lee:
... Any of the 3 capable of lead bullets Q? Would plated bullets shoot without fouling issues?


Regardless to provenance, Swiss, German or US made, they all have barrels with a 1/10 twist rate. It´s too fast for lead. SIG offered special barrels with a 1/20 twist rate for that matter. If Vo is reduced it might work, but a .30 caliber recoil spring might be needed in order to compensate for the reduced gas pressure. It would be interesting to know if it was possible to use such a spring assembly in this US made version.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rufous03,
 
Posts: 51 | Location: Calgary, Alberta | Registered: December 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JBird679:
quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
The thread is long expired, but a member posted the results of a Ransom rest group test of several Swiss and German P210s, and one X5 L1. The result: all pistols produced similar group sizes. But the single best group was shot from the X5.

Sure wish that I'd copied that thread.

I think you may be referring to this?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...curate-pistols-part/

No, as Q said, that wasn't it. It was a SigForum thread, and the pistols were shot from a Ransom rest.



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 9691 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
A comment regarding the hammer bite I read so much about of P210 shooters. What hammer bite? I just don't get it. It's physically impossible to get hammer bite, unless you have so much meat in the web between the thumb and index finger that it rolls up above the short tail and spill over to the area of the hammer. The only reason that I can think of that is more reasonable is this. The bite is from the swept down tail itself. The down pointing tail hit the web of your hand with each recoil. That makes more sense to me.


The P210-5LS you tested is a late model with the extended beavertail built into the frame.
Hence no hammer bite.
It is the early models without the extension that bite, it is easily fixed with a after market tail extension.

[quote]Originally posted by David Lee:
... Any of the 3 capable of lead bullets Q? Would plated bullets shoot without fouling issues?



Regardless to provenance, Swiss, German or US made, they all have barrels with a 1/10 twist rate. It´s too fast for lead. SIG offered special barrels with a 1/20 twist rate for that matter. If Vo is reduced it might work, but a .30 caliber recoil spring might be needed in order to compensate for the reduced gas pressure. It would be interesting to know if it was possible to use such a spring assembly in this US made version.[quote]

For shooting cast lead bullets I fitted a aftermarket barrel from IGB Austria. Very good results with no leading.

http://www.igbaustria.com/shop...g0s2eni4vokskqocskb2
 
Posts: 13 | Registered: February 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Baroque Bloke
Picture of Pipe Smoker
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Member Ed Fowler shoots lead bullets from his two P210 Legends. AFAIK, his pistols have the ordinary barrel. Since he uses them for target shooting, perhaps his powder charge is light.



Serious about crackers
 
Posts: 9691 | Location: San Diego | Registered: July 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
7.62mm Crusader
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by rufous03:
I have two P49 Swiss Military P210-2 ,as well as the Legend, Super Target and a P226X6 PPC. I shoot all regularly with 125 gr cast lead bullets ( my own) and have never encountered a problem, some minor leading which was easily removed. I have not noticed any change in grouping when switching back to jacketed bullets. I guess the secret is to clean your barrel regularly! Just a note, some of my cast bullets have given me the best groups at 25 meters!


quote:
Originally posted by OTD:
quote:
Originally posted by David Lee:
... Any of the 3 capable of lead bullets Q? Would plated bullets shoot without fouling issues?


Regardless to provenance, Swiss, German or US made, they all have barrels with a 1/10 twist rate. It´s too fast for lead. SIG offered special barrels with a 1/20 twist rate for that matter. If Vo is reduced it might work, but a .30 caliber recoil spring might be needed in order to compensate for the reduced gas pressure. It would be interesting to know if it was possible to use such a spring assembly in this US made version.
Thats fine information from both you and OTD. I know the capability of quality cast bullets. Seldom will a jacketed projectile be so accurate. I threw in the mix plated also as many a reloader use these. There are nice options in bullet design among plated bullets and I know they can be made to shoot accurate. I would take advantage of them were I to own such high end 9mm pistols like the P210 or X guns. I should have edited my previous post as I intended PVD finish not plastic pipe... Big Grin. With that, I digress of reloading and wish that someday we read a post from 12131 about a straight wall Sig auto like the venerable P240. Simply my most adored Swiss pistol.
 
Posts: 18017 | Location: The Bluegrass State! | Registered: December 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
7.62mm Crusader
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pipe Smoker:
Member Ed Fowler shoots lead bullets from his two P210 Legends. AFAIK, his pistols have the ordinary barrel. Since he uses them for target shooting, perhaps his powder charge is light.
IIRC, he uses something along the line of Thompsons Bore Butter in his barrel. Its a muzzle loader patch lube.
 
Posts: 18017 | Location: The Bluegrass State! | Registered: December 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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With the IGB barrel, which I think is 1/18 twist I use cast 3% tin 128g RNWC at 980fps (power factor 125)lubed with a beeswax lube,for WA1500 and Service pistol.
Even after 400 rounds there is no sign of any leading with a 2" - 2 1/2" group at 50 yds.
 
Posts: 13 | Registered: February 26, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Author,
cowboy,
friend to all
posted Hide Post
When I stated usig lead bullets I did not have much hope of great accuracy, when I switched to a 127 gr lead SWC I found my bullet, no round nose bullet has beat them. Many claimed they should not be fired through the Sig Legends, I found them a joy.

My load was 3.5 gr of 700 X. This load seems to be the standard for others to match.

I shot over 40,000 rounds shooting steel targets painted with red primer, this provided good contrast for the Target then photographing the groups. The S&W 952's I used proved to beabout 20% more accurate than the Sig Legend or legend target.
 
Posts: 2410 | Location: Riverton Wyoming | Registered: June 05, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Author,
cowboy,
friend to all
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Fowler:
When I stated usig lead bullets I did not have much hope of great accuracy, when I switched to a 127 gr lead SWC I found my bullet, no round nose bullet has beat them. Many claimed they should not be fired through the Sig Legends, I found them a joy.

My load was 3.5 gr of 700 X. This load seems to be the standard for others to match.

This is what a target of 500 hits at 88 yards like. The cardboard was not changed between test targets, I do not believe there were many misses.



I did come to realize the significance of judging accuracy on many rounds instead of simple 10 shot groups.

I shot over 40,000 rounds shooting steel targets painted with red primer, this provided good contrast for the Target then photographing the groups. The S&W 952's I used proved to be about 20% more accurate than the Sig Legend or legend target.
 
Posts: 2410 | Location: Riverton Wyoming | Registered: June 05, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
SIG-Sauer
Anthropologist
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I tried lead years ago against the general recommendation. The issues I had was not so much accruracy or general group size but random fliers. It's not that painful for groups, because you can always shoot another pattern, but it hurts when you shoot for score, when the fliers are tearing the results down. I changed back to Geco 124 FMJ and Swiss Army ball 41 and 14 for that reason, also because there is plenty of space on international 25m precision- and rapidfire targets for the accuracy the two factory loads I chose are providing.
 
Posts: 3790 | Location: Switzerland | Registered: January 24, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
3° that never cooled
Picture of rock185
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Ed, you're doing a lot better with lead bullets in the 1 in 10" twist barrels than I ever did. Most of my efforts with 1 in 10 barrels were with the Hi Powers. Tried all sorts of combinations, but never achieved respectable results with the factory 1 in 10 barrels. Couple Hi Powers with BarStos produced good accuracy with lead bullets, but the factory barrels, not so much.

BTW, Was the 952's 20% better accuracy than the Legend with the same lead bullet load? My 952 was very accurate, but I shot all jacketed bullets in that one.


NRA Life
 
Posts: 1588 | Location: Under the Tonto Rim | Registered: August 18, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Author,
cowboy,
friend to all
posted Hide Post
Yes, I tried several loads that were to be most accurate in my other 9mm. After all this shooting this load has done well in all of my 9mm.

I only shoot lead SWC in my target 9mm and most of the rest of them I have found them more accurate as a rule than the round nose..

The Bore Butter has proven to be a benefit in every firearm I shoot, the last brush or patch is always soaked in bore butter.

What the heck, give them a try, the world will not come to an end if yours likes them and you will save some bucks.
 
Posts: 2410 | Location: Riverton Wyoming | Registered: June 05, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
3° that never cooled
Picture of rock185
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Thanks for the information Ed.


NRA Life
 
Posts: 1588 | Location: Under the Tonto Rim | Registered: August 18, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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