quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
[

One local agencies went with Staccatos for their admins only... Didn't think it was a good option for general issue, but the brass wanted fancy guns.

They should have to pay the extra cost out of their own pocket then. Why should taxpayers be on the hook for their vanity?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I hate to be “that” friggin guy, but could you imagine designing one that takes G17 mags?

I'll be that other guy, design one that takes the MecGar made 18rd flush fit Beretta 92 magazine. These magazines are not expensive and just plain work.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I hate to be “that” friggin guy, but could you imagine designing one that takes G17 mags?

I, and, I imagine, most others would be happy if the industry would just settle on a design, rather than different, incompatible mags for every last different manufacturer.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I hate to be “that” friggin guy, but could you imagine designing one that takes G17 mags?

I thought the difference in grip angle makes the 1911/2011 design incompatible w/ Glock mags, yes/no?

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
I'll be that other guy, design one that takes the MecGar made 18rd flush fit Beretta 92 magazine. These magazines are not expensive and just plain work.

I think the patents for Beretta 92, Sig P226, & CZ 75 mags all expired in the previous century. Why someone hasn't designed a wide-body 1911/2011 around one of those mags, I have no idea.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I hate to be “that” friggin guy, but could you imagine designing one that takes G17 mags?

I thought the difference in grip angle makes the 1911/2011 design incompatible w/ Glock mags, yes/no?

There's at least one custom 1911 pistol that takes Glock magazines - the Alpha Foxtrot 1911-S15.

It uses the Shield Arms 15 round G43X/G48 aftermarket magazine, but also accepts G43X/G48 factory magazines.

https://alphafoxtrot.us/1911-s15/

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
I thought the difference in grip angle makes the 1911/2011 design incompatible w/ Glock mags, yes/no?

Definitely.

quote:

While the grip angle of a Glock might vary slightly from model to model, almost all of them have a grip angle of about 22 degrees. This is slightly different from some other handguns on the market. For example, the 1911 pistol has a grip angle of about 18 degrees.

Ref: What Is The Grip Angle Of A Glock?

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Definitely.

quote:

While the grip angle of a Glock might vary slightly from model to model, almost all of them have a grip angle of about 22 degrees. This is slightly different from some other handguns on the market. For example, the 1911 pistol has a grip angle of about 18 degrees.

The Polymer 80 Glock frame (and other aftermarket Glock frames) also have 18 degree grip angles, yet still use standard Glock magazines.

4 degrees of grip/magazine angle difference is not this insurmountable thing. It just has to be taken into account when designing the new frame.

To be fair, the Staccato C2 and P/XC magazines are $69.99, not $100. And the mags have been 100% in my P, no issues whatsoever.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
And if you are designing a 1911 to be a high cap 9, couldn't you set the lower receiver up to accept a common, proven magazine like P226, Beretta 92 or CZ 75? And thereby save your customers from spending $100 on a mag?

There are some things that are in the way there:

1) The magazine has to be dimensionally narrow enough for a 2011 trigger bow to wrap around it, otherwise you need to design and produce new triggers.

2) The top of the magazine has to taper to a single column feed sooner than other double stack mags so that it will fit in the module frame piece. A 2011 frame has 1911 dimensions between the slide rails. Maybe you could take some material out of the design, but it will weaken it (most likely) and also create another type of frame and further fragment the market.

3) There is a lot of time and money invested into the current double stack magazines so if you're a company like Staccato that has made that commitment, I think it's tough to justify cannibalizing your own business for something new and unproven (see above). Even if you could do it by just making new grip modules (unlikely), an industrial quality injection mold is probably $25,000 or more so you've got to make a lot of grips.

I was initially very much in the "they should make one of these that takes a Beretta/Sig/CZ/etc. mag", but the more you look at the design, the less sense it makes. I thought that was what Wilson was going to do with their X9 guns - stuff a Beretta magazine in a gun that was 75% 1911 parts, but even they did not do that. To expand on my Porsche analogy from earlier, it's like wishing they would make the 911 compatible with Toyota Camry wheels and tires...it could probably be done, but at what cost? (Although the magazine is definitely a weak link).

Dan Wesson was able to do it with CZ-75/CZ P09 magazines in the DWX.

Granted, that's not a traditional 2011 frame, which circumvents some of the issue described. But it (along with stuff like the aforementioned 1911-S15) does show that producing a 1911/2011-style platform that uses existing magazine designs is doable, with enough design work.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
To expand on my Porsche analogy from earlier, it's like wishing they would make the 911 compatible with Toyota Camry wheels and tires...it could probably be done, but at what cost? (Although the magazine is definitely a weak link).

I would think it’s no more ridiculous than taking a 100 year old car, putting modern wheels on it and curb feelers and trying to convince everyone that it’s a Ferrari.

Next up, Ford unveils the Model T Roush edition. Car and Driver reports that it has been adopted by the IRS TRT team*.

*upgraded tires available for $4,000 each.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Dan Wesson was able to do it with CZ-75/CZ P09 magazines in the DWX.

Granted, that's not a traditional 2011 frame, which circumvents some of the issue described. But it (along with stuff like the aforementioned 1911-S15) does show that producing a 1911/2011-style platform that uses existing magazine designs is doable, with enough design work.

Right. I'd be curious to see how the DWX trigger is designed. The S15 mags are already very narrow, which helps. Perhaps a longer magazine of that pattern is an answer, but then the question is whether the juice is worth the squeeze on tooling up something new like that.

I'm not even an amateur gunsmith, but I think that people significantly underestimate the complexity of the task.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I would think it’s no more ridiculous than taking a 100 year old car, putting modern wheels on it and curb feelers and trying to convince everyone that it’s a Ferrari.

Well, when 100-year-old cars start competing with modern Farraris and winning, let us know. Meanwhile, competitors are using modern versions of a 100-year-old handgun design and winning competitions such as USPSA, IDPA, and SCSA right-and-left.

Competitors that run these guns run thousands of rounds through them and beat the living daylights out of them in competition, too.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Right. I'd be curious to see how the DWX trigger is designed.

If the DWX ever sees the light of day perhaps I'll regard that as a reasonable argument for shoving a Glock magazine into a 2011 design

Man, 1911 guys are rabid, I’ll give you that.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Man, 1911 guys are rabid, I’ll give you that.

Almost as rabid as the Glock guys, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Man, 1911 guys are rabid, I’ll give you that.

Almost as rabid as the Glock guys, eh?

Similar.

But here’s a playbook that the Glock guys don’t have. It may have copyright issues from Bill Wilson, but it works across the board for all the shooting sports.

Step 1- Create very narrowly defined rules and requirements that allow the 1911 to win.
Step 2- Publicize how relevant the 1911 still is.
Step 3- Get absolutely humiliated when a 32 year old Marine wins Nationals with a lightly modded P220.
Step 4- Call an emergency meeting of the BOD to change the rules even more narrowly so only 1911’s can win.
Step 5- Profit.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
If the DWX ever sees the light of day perhaps I'll regard that as a reasonable argument for shoving a Glock magazine into a 2011 design

It's seen the light of day, just not in mass production. It's not just a concept or a prototype. The design is complete. It has been produced, just not in quantity for commercial sales. Dan Wesson apparently got caught up in COVID-related supply chain issues with some of its outsourced parts suppliers, and therefore put the DWX release on hold for the time being.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Similar.

But here’s a playbook that the Glock guys don’t have. It may have copyright issues from Bill Wilson, but it works across the board for all the shooting sports.

Step 1- Create very narrowly defined rules and requirements that allow the 1911 to win.

I just don't understand the Internet Venom against IDPA. What do you gain from telling me what I am doing wrong to shoot IDPA instead of Something Else. Actually for me it is not instead, it is in addition to, but the point remains.

I find myself in a minority shooting a 1911 type and Wilson brand guns are very scarce. Oh, and how about those Wilson butts for Sigs? Not many of those, either; I don't think he is making lot of money directly off the game.


As to the OP, I am strict on the definition, it isn't a 2011 unless it takes 2011 magazines.
I understand the desire to own a pistol with 1911 lockwork taking a Gabbett Fairfax Mars magazine or some such cheaper alternative. I can see reason to make it a real 9mm magazine instead of a .45 magazine nipped in to hold the smaller caliber. But which? Glock, Sig, Beretta, CZ, or what? Hey, it is "Modular" maybe butt molds could be made to accept different foreign magazines to suit the buyer. The Ruger carbine comes with magazine wells for own and Glock magazines and the 3D printers are working on others.

quote:

2) The top of the magazine has to taper to a single column feed sooner than other double stack mags so that it will fit in the module frame piece. A 2011 frame has 1911 dimensions between the slide rails. Maybe you could take some material out of the design, but it will weaken it (most likely) and also create another type of frame and further fragment the market.

I was just the other day reading a plug for a shop that will mill a 2011 receiver to take some different magazine with less top taper. So it has been done. I will look for the reference.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
As to the OP, I am strict on the definition, it isn't a 2011 unless it takes 2011 magazines.

Hmmm... So my Staccato R isn't a 2011 despite the fact Staccato, who coined the designation, calls it a 2011?

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

One local agencies went with Staccatos for their admins only... Didn't think it was a good option for general issue, but the brass wanted fancy guns.

Engraved, gold plated Hi Powers have been on back order forever.