I did not want to derail the post on the new Springfield 2011, so I will begin a related post. I am a big fan of the 1911 (I have a photo of JMB on my refrigerator) but so far, I cant see (other than increased capacity) why the 2011 is so superior to the conventional, higher end 1911. And worth the added cost. I know the 2011 is gaining some acceptance in the LE world. So, if you are a 2011 owner / shooter, please give me the benefit of your experience.
Thanks in advance!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: YooperSigs,

I simplest terms it takes all the positives of a 1911 and puts them into a more modern platform.

Double stack
9mm vs 45

It’s not as though the 2011 has a better possible trigger or anything. It just capitalized on how great the 1911 was but with some modern improvements.

The .45 is dead in LE circles. A company that makes 1911s that wants the LE market is going to have to chamber it in 9mm. No one is going to purchase a 10 round capacity pistol that weighs 42 ounces. So, it has to be high capacity.

We just finished doing a 90 day T&E on the Staccatos. It shot nice, but still has all the fleas that any 1911 does. Plus magazines are $100 each.

The main thing is they usually have polymer grip frames, so there's weight reduction.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
I simplest terms it takes all the positives of a 1911 and puts them into a more modern platform.

Double stack
9mm vs 45

Nope. "2011" ≠ 9mm. You can get 2011's in 9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and even 10mm. Haven't seen any in 357 SIG, tho.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
We just finished doing a 90 day T&E on the Staccatos. It shot nice, but still has all the fleas that any 1911 does. Plus magazines are $100 each.

That sounds similar to the T&E experience Delta Force had w/ Staccato (formerly STI) 2011s chambering in 40S&W circa 2006. You'd think that after 15 years, Staccato would have worked out the bugs.

https://www.forgottenweapons.c...on-meets-operations/

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
We just finished doing a 90 day T&E on the Staccatos. It shot nice, but still has all the fleas that any 1911 does.

*shrug* It's a somewhat modernized 1911, so no surprise there.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Plus magazines are $100 each.

Yeah, that's a problem with lots of 2011s. Mags aren't standardized, so they're all manufacturer-specific, so they all cost and arm and a leg.

That was one advantage to my Staccato R: Takes stock 1911 single-stack mags

I carried a single stack 1911 for years on duty. One day I stumbled into a great deal for an earlier STI Tactical 5.0 in .45acp. Yes, the mags were either 11rd or 13, giving me 12 or 14 but it was worth it to me. Mags were finicky. Buy a bunch, sell off the ones that didn't work right. I never did buy into "tuning" mags. I loved that gun, still do and it is one of the better shooting 45acp's I have.

The 9's rule the earth now, as far as duty guns. Expensive yes. Worth it? That's up to the buyer. If I didn't have my Wilson EDC X9 and Sig P226SAO Legion for work guns, I'd likely dabble into the current STI's. Glocks, while great duty guns, bore me. I have the luxury to be bored when I want.

I have been looking at the XDC 9. But the 3K+ price tag has stopped me so far.

I like my double-stack EDC X9 so far but there's no question that its price of admission was steep, especially when I decided to go for a version with the RMR cut. For me I told myself that it was going to be worth the cost because it knocked an big item off my bucket list: to buy and own a true honest-to-goodness WC pistol (sorry Beretta, SIG; no 'restomods' for me). So far my self-induced pep talks have only partially convinced me that it's been worth it, but I do enjoy how well it shoots.

Never seriously considered a Staccato, either on its own or in lieu of going with the Wilson.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
We just finished doing a 90 day T&E on the Staccatos. It shot nice, but still has all the fleas that any 1911 does. Plus magazines are $100 each.

Mags for LE orders should be at dealer cost. I just picked up an XC (my 4th STI/Staccato) and additional 140mm (20 round) magazines were $55 each. LE guns should also be shipping with six mags. (you probably know this, just pointing it out for anybody else that might be interested)

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I did want to derail the post on the new Springfield 2011, so I will begin a related post. I am a big fan of the 1911 (I have a photo of JMB on my refrigerator) but so far, I cant see (other than increased capacity) why the 2011 is so superior to the conventional, higher end 1911. And worth the added cost. I know the 2011 is gaining some acceptance in the LE world. So, if you are a 2011 owner / shooter, please give me the benefit of your experience.
Thanks in advance!

I'll take a swing at it...

Widebody 1911s (a term I'm using to encompass all varieties of double stack 1911) have been around 35 years or so. Para Ordnance and STI both brought to market popular options with Para's being a more traditional frame and STI's being a frame with a modular grip. Both saw some popularity in competition but, at least in the case of STI, magazine issues were a large limiting factor in widespread popularity because they were expensive and unreliable. Hilton Yam (10-8 Performance) had put up some decent content about the pitfalls of 2011 magazine selection and tuning in the old days. Like all things 1911, the widebody guns could generally be had in any caliber, barrel length, etc. The guns just never saw any real serious use in LE or military circles with the exception of Delta Force trying to acquire some guns in the mid 2000s in ,40 and ultimately sending them back. Forgotten Weapons has a good video and article on these guns.

Fast forward to around 2017 or 2018 and STI Firearms came under new ownership and started refocusing on the defense market (including law enforcement and concealed carry). A relatively complicated model line started to get trimmed down. Most importantly, they finally figured the magazines out. The STI Gen 2 magazines were cheaper to produce and significantly more reliable. STI started aggressively marketing to law enforcement and brought Buck Pierson in as their LE program manager. They also contracted Mike Panone, Hilton Yam, and others to stand up parts of their LE and carry business. Arguably this all culminated in a name change to Staccato in 2020. There is an interim period where the business was called STI and the Staccato P, Staccato C, and Staccato C2 were model names.

With the refocusing and name-change, came a lot of marketing, also. Staccato got a contract to provide guns to the US Marshals Service SOG and started aggressively demoing the guns for agencies. There are several hundred agencies authorizing the guns. I would bet that there are only a few issuing them. They have also moved onto a third magazine revision (marked G3), have gone to a new grip frame design (Gen 2), and done some other things obviously intended to streamline things and cut costs.

The Staccato guns today are a high-quality, production level widebody 1911. You aren't going to get a gun the quality of a Nighthawk or a Wilson or something like that, but you're also not getting a Springfield or a Remington or a (insert name here), either. They include features that people generally want, like ambi safeties, good sights, decent grip textures, trigger, etc. and just enough options (stainless or DLC barrel finish, optic cuts) for people to feel like they're getting a "custom" gun without actually hand-building them.

So why are they popular?

I think the biggest single thing is that they got the magazines working. That is what lets all of the marketing work for them. Staccato is selling more $2000 pistols right now than anybody has ever in the history of $2000 pistols. You're getting the capacity of a modern striker gun with the trigger, manual of arms, and (most of) the ergos of a 1911.

Are they "worth it?" It's really hard to say. My first "modern" widebody 1911 experience was shooting one of Steve Fisher's Nighthawks at a class in 2019. I had written the guns off for a long time because of how problematic the magazines were. I bought my first 2011, an STI Tactical produced after the ownership change and release of the Gen 2 magazine, the same week. I ordered a Staccato C2 as soon as they were available. I bought a Staccato P not long after. I just got an XC. I find the guns to be reliable*, very accurate, and very easy to shoot. "Reliable" requires an asterisk because they are as reliable as any 1911, which means that they stay reliable as long as you stay on top of them. They need to be lubricated like any high tolerance gun and recoil and magazine springs need to be replaced periodically. I liken it to buying a Porsche. It's going to do things a Camry or a Mustang or whatever won't, but it's going to need more careful maintenance.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Are they "worth it?" It's really hard to say.

This ^^^^^

I paid nearly $2k for my Staccato R, a single-stack 2011. It was well worth it, to me, because that pistol shoots like no other pistol I've ever shot, much less owned, before.

Would I have one of these if I had to haul a handgun through rain, sleet, snow, mud, dust storms, freezing-azz cold to broiling heat, all w/o regular maintenance? Nope. I'd grit my teeth and choose a plastic fantastic.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
I liken it to buying a Porsche. It's going to do things a Camry or a Mustang or whatever won't, but it's going to need more careful maintenance.

Yup.

My Staccato R is unquestionably my finest handgun, hands-down.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
We just finished doing a 90 day T&E on the Staccatos. It shot nice, but still has all the fleas that any 1911 does.

One local agencies went with Staccatos for their admins only... Didn't think it was a good option for general issue, but the brass wanted fancy guns.

2011 is a nice gun but a expensive proposition..

Thanks everyone, for all the input. I will try out the new Springfield and see how things go with it. Then maybe upgrade to a Staccato.
Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
We just finished doing a 90 day T&E on the Staccatos. It shot nice, but still has all the fleas that any 1911 does.

One local agencies went with Staccatos for their admins only... Didn't think it was a good option for general issue, but the brass wanted fancy guns.

We have some guys that want them. They are shooters and if they believe that they can make the commitment to care and maintaining them I don’t want to get in the way. However, I don’t see that it does anything “better” than some other pistols at a fraction of the cost. Right now, for me, the P320 AXG pro is shooting on par with everything we did with the Staccatos we had, with less maintenance required.

The interesting thing will be the comparison between the two at something like 20k. I would think that the Staccatos will our perform at that point.....

Nighthawk is offering a "Double Stack" option on select 9mm models of their 1911s. Using a steel frame, not polymer. $650 upgrade on a newly ordered gun.

Nighthawk upgrade

And if you are designing a 1911 to be a high cap 9, couldn't you set the lower receiver up to accept a common, proven magazine like P226, Beretta 92 or CZ 75? And thereby save your customers from spending $100 on a mag?

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Thanks everyone, for all the input. I will try out the new Springfield and see how things go with it. Then maybe upgrade to a Staccato.
Thanks again.

Depending upon reviews and reported Real People feedback, I may pick one up for a relatively economical 1911/2011 platform upon which to put an RDS.

If it's got good bones, my 1911 smith can easily straighten-out any minor issues.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
And if you are designing a 1911 to be a high cap 9, couldn't you set the lower receiver up to accept a common, proven magazine like P226, Beretta 92 or CZ 75? And thereby save your customers from spending $100 on a mag?

I hate to be “that” friggin guy, but could you imagine designing one that takes G17 mags?