I got to thinking about this today for some reason. Once law enforcement as a whole shifted to semi automatic handguns, relatively speaking has the capacity of said handgun ever made the difference in an incident?

I know about the dude who dumped 3 mags of .45 from a Glock 21 before he went down but in general terms we’ve seen LEO’s carry everything from 8 to 18 rounds in the gun over the years (in general terms I know there are outliers) and I was just wondering if the capacity of the weapon ever really made the difference.

We live in a world where capacity is king, and I certainly subscribe to nobody ever walked away from a gunfight thinking I wish I had less ammo but in the real world how often does it really matter from a law enforcement perspective? Is a Glock 23 really a detriment over a Glock 19 or 17/22 for example? (Besides the other factors of platform/shootability etc.

Just a thought since I’ve watched over the years folks go from….
-go .45 or go home to
-I gotta have the most ammo humanly possible to
-I want an itty bitty 6-8 round carry gun to
-a micro compact with 10ish rounds is perfect to
-We seem to be swinging back to that Glock 19/23 12-15 rounds size.

Just a mental break from work.

Chris

Newhall incident is the first thing that comes to mind. Yes, revolver, but still, same thing.

.

The 1986 FBI Miami shootout occurred on April 11, 1986. The videos point out how Agents ran out of ammo or were struggling with reload of revolver after being hit. The main takeaway was the FBI searching for deeper penetrating caliber

A team of 8 FBI agents decided to execute a felony car stop on a pair of armed and volatile bank robbers named Platt and Matix.

The ensuing gunfight has become a classic case study of a law enforcement gunfight, with more than 140 rounds fired leaving 4 men dead and five more wounded.

When the FBI analyzed the event, one of their main conclusions was that the 9mm hollowpoint ammunition used by the agents had underpenetrated, and this drove the agency’s decision to adopt the 10mm Auto pistol cartridge as a replacement (which didn’t last long, and in turn led to the mass adoption of .40 S&W by law enforcement departments nationwide).

www.ForgottenWeapons.com/the-1986-fbi-gunfight-and-adoption-of-the-10mm-auto/

FBI Training Videos on this incident:
Direct Link to Video: www.YouTube.com/watch?v=3pE4XI1dNWk

Two FBI training videos about the 1986 Miami gunfight back-to-back. The first video, "Firefight" reenacts the gunfight. In the second video, "Personal Reflections", agents who survived the gunfight discuss the event and the lessons learned.
.

In reading about the Newhall incident, I don't see how round capacity led to the officer's deaths.

This horrific incident might be an example:

https://www.latimes.com/archiv...25-mn-990-story.html

"The first police officer to respond to the emergency calls was Officer Gerald Johnson, 28, with a year on the job. His squad car pulled up at 6:24 p.m. Cruse killed him with eight shots into the windshield, officers said.

Then came Officer Ron Grogan, 27, a rookie cop. Police said he died in an exchange of bullets, trying to reload.

By then, the parking lot was strewn with people, some hiding beneath their cars, others wounded or dead."

I think the amok had a Mini-14.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
In reading about the Newhall incident, I don't see how round capacity led to the officer's deaths.

Pence, from the second unit, was still trying to reload his revolver, when he was shot and killed by Twinning.

I missed that, 12131, thanks for the elucidation.

Doesn't change the intent of OP's inquiry, but didn't Twinning also have a 6 shot revolver?

NJSP Phil Lamanaco, perfect example of capacity of a revolver vs a “wonder nine” back in the day, and the catalyst for Col. Pagano to switch NJ Troop to the P7M8 as a duty weapon.

I switched to carrying S&W39, and then a S&W59 after this.

https://revolverguy.com/lesson...per-philip-lamonaco/

I think that comparing what LE needs to what a concealed carry holder needs is slightly disingenuous, although I am sure you are not doing so on purpose.

Lately I have been carrying my Colt Defender in 45 ACP with eight in the pistol and one spare mag of seven rounds. I am okay with that. I know I won't be called out to a "shots fired" incident and that would make a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
...but didn't Twinning also have a 6 shot revolver?

Twinning and Davis had more than just a revolver. Frago and Gore died basically instantly from the original ambush. That left just Alleyn and Pence, who were also surprise attacked when arriving on scene later and were outgunned.

Agree about non LEO vs LEO use but I was thinking more along the lines of worst case scenarios with folks who may be obligated to get in the fight vs being obligated to get out of/stay out of the fight so to speak.

I know of several instances with revolvers that were due to either capacity or reloading or a combination of both but it seems that once semi autos of any kind ruled the roost that seemed to alleviate most issues whether using 8 shot autos or 17 shot wonder nines.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
...but didn't Twinning also have a 6 shot revolver?

Twinning and Davis had more than just a revolver. Frago and Gore died basically instantly from the original ambush. That left just Alleyn and Pence, who were also surprise attacked when arriving on scene later and were outgunned.

Q is correct. Twinning and Davis had multiple other guns in the back seat which they made us of against the CHP troopers.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Is a Glock 23 really a detriment over a Glock 19 or 17/22 for example?

This particular comparison isn't just down to capacity, a Glock in 9mm is a lot easier to shoot rapidly and on target than a Glock in .40. I've owned, and still own a lot of the former and several of the latter, I'll take a G17 or G45 over a G22 every time, and that would still be the case if the G22 mags had +2's on them and the G17 mags did not.

In the LE circles - revolvers we’re low on capacity, but as important were far slower to reload. (Very few can do what Jerry Miculek can do…). So even if you Gower capacity, such as a 1911, you can still reload much more quickly than a wheel gun.

But remember, most civilian self defense shootings are somewhere around 6 rounds or less. The only time you would need more would be, say an active shooter. And contrary to what the media says - those are exceptionally rare.

I am totally unaware of any civilian self defense shooting that was lost due to capacity / reloading. But to be fair records of those are not well documental nationally.

I can't think of any right off the bat handgun against handgun. Unfortunately, there are plenty police handgun against felon rifle/carbine/shotgun, as has been mentioned already.

A few years ago, I spoke to Massad Ayoob after a MAG-40 class. I asked him about his findings when he reviewed the Illinois State Police gunfight files years ago. He said that the identifed 13 troopers who only survived their gunfights because they were armed with 8-round S&W 9mm semi-autos with manual safeties rather than 6-shot revolvers. This included the shooting of an armed felon when the felon rushed the trooper after mistakenly thinking he was out after firing his sixth round. Ayoob referred to 4 of the 13 gunfights as, "absolute firepower saves," and said that the troopers would've most likely died if armed with revolvers.

I asked him if he'd ever identified any LEOs who were outgunned when armed with single-stack .45 semi-autos like the P220 and 1911, since they only held 2-3 more rounds than revolvers. He said, "No." My takeaway was that even slightly more is better, regardless of caliber.

An off-duty Ogden, UT PD officer took on an active killer at Trolley Square Mall in Salt Lake City a few years ago. If memory serves, the felon was armed with a pistol and shotgun. The off-duty officer had a single-stack Kimber 1911 .45. He said after his first few rounds, rather than being able to focus solely on the ongoing gunfight, he was doing a round count assessment in his head since he didn't have a spare mag. That's a ding on him, and he owned it, but that's often the reality of things. As I understand it, he got down to 1-2 rounds in his Kimber before SLCPD entered & put the coward down with an MP-5 and M4. SLCPD's timing was fortunate. Last I heard, the OPD officer was now carrying a Glock 22.

Back in the early-1990s, TX DPS Trooper Andy Lopez got into a gunfight with an armed drug mule, who was not a large man. The trafficker pulled a small pistol from his waistband during a traffic stop. Andy's duty weapon was a Sig P220 .45. He hit the felon with his first DA shot using a Speer 200-grain "Flying Ashtray" JHP. Lopez exchanged fire with the felon and hit him multiple times before the fight finally ended. Lopez was down to just a couple of rounds in his last mag. A few years after this, TX DPS switched to P226s in .357 Sig, and I've read that this gunfight played a role due to capacity. Caliber was also changed to .357 Sig because of poor bullet penetration with the .45 against a barricaded truck driver a few years later.

Times have changed for the street cop. My last uniformed duty gun was a .40 P229 with full mag in the gun and two on the belt. Two more mags in my war bag. If I was in harness today, it would be a Gen 5 G17 or 320F with a 20 rounder in the gun and 2 20s on the belt.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Agree about non LEO vs LEO use but I was thinking more along the lines of worst case scenarios with folks who may be obligated to get in the fight vs being obligated to get out of/stay out of the fight so to speak.

I know of several instances with revolvers that were due to either capacity or reloading or a combination of both but it seems that once semi autos of any kind ruled the roost that seemed to alleviate most issues whether using 8 shot autos or 17 shot wonder nines.

Well said. I believe this is absolutely true.

My personal opinion is the capacity thing has gotten a little out of hand. Most LE OIS are over in a few rounds. Yes, there are extended gunbattles that involve many more rounds fired, but they are very few and far between. We also live in an era where rifles are commonly available to officers in the car.

When I started, a very common loadout around here was one eight round mag of 45 ACP in the gun and two extras on the belt in a closed top pouch.
1+8+8+8=25 rounds

Today I see lots of guys at my department and other local departments carrying a 21 round mag in the gun and three extra 21 round mags on their belt or external vest carrier.
1+21+21+21+21=85 rounds

Is more rounds more better? Perhaps. But in an era where we are truly accountable for every round fired I think it can be a little problematic. The fact that we now are forced to carry much more equipment on our person than we did 25 years ago doesn't make carrying more mags with more rounds easier.

I, for one, am still completely content with 25 rounds of 45 ACP, but what do I know?

Bottom line is, each of us chooses what capacity we're comfortable with and carry on. There is no right or wrong answer, until that moment..

Are there any updated studies on number of rounds fired vs hits made? Now that more agencies are issuing 9’s has this number gone up or down, stayed the same?

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Is a Glock 23 really a detriment over a Glock 19 or 17/22 for example?

This particular comparison isn't just down to capacity, a Glock in 9mm is a lot easier to shoot rapidly and on target than a Glock in .40. I've owned, and still own a lot of the former and several of the latter, I'll take a G17 or G45 over a G22 every time, and that would still be the case if the G22 mags had +2's on them and the G17 mags did not.

Correct. I was just using those as 1 to 1 for what I was asking I terms of capacity. A .45 P220 is going to shoot radically different than a P225 for example. Don’t care about caliber for what I am asking. Was just curious if the LEO community, once they moved to semi autos of any kind, saw any real issues with the capacity of “whatever platform” they had on their belt.