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P320 or S&W M&P 2.0 Login/Join 
Blackwater
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P320 vs MP - P320 all day, now that the X series frames are available.

For me the P320 texture is near perfect. The MP 1.0 was too slippery at first and much to abrasive on the 2.0. The APX is very nice with more aggressive texture on the front and back and good feel on the side without the abrasion.

Couple things, I do think the high bore axis is overstated, but one's perception can be reality to that person, but is ultimately subjective at best.

There is truth to spring rates effect on slide velocity, along with slide mass, which is often not accounted for in recoil discussions.

Different grip designs with the same slide, made this evident in running a P320 X Carry slide on both a X Carry grip and a compact grip.

Spring rates are identical, same trigger, bore axis height is identical, but the improved grip design of the X Carry (for my anatomy) and the reduced slide weight provide me with increased comfort and subsequently performance. So much so, that the I shoot it better than the G19, which for me has always been my best performer.

I really prefer the flat triggers of the P320 X and APX.

Don't discount the APX, it's a nice shooter at a very nice price point vs the Glock, P320. More on par with the MP for price, but better built IMO than it or the Glock.


Joe
 
Posts: 2525 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Cous2492
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Cous2492:
Okay, you are entitled to your opinion. I can just give my findings. And I wont say that it is 100% a bore axis issue, I can just say that shooting quickly with the p320 took more effort. The front sight moved more than the others (including the p228). I can also say that the G19 has thousands of rounds through it and is at least six years old. The P320 is about a year old and has very few rounds through it. So, if its a spring issue, its on Sig for not designing the gun with the right springs. I can also tell you that it is not how I hold the gun. I carry a weapon professionally, I shoot competitively, and consider myself to be more than competent with firearms.

To the OP, please dont take my post as bashing the P320. I would (and do) carry one with confidence.


Big Grin

It's not "my opinion". It is the results of slow motion (and high speed) video tests that I have been involved in testing various pistols.

First off, you have to have someone with a really good grip. Secondly, shoot guns and repeat. This false idea of Glock's having "less recoil" and "emrmaghad high bore axis" gets dispelled fairly quickly when the rubber meets the road. You don't see a discernible difference in actual recoil until you submit a metal framed gun against any polymer.

The whole Glock thing? Oh yeah, they are over sprung big time still to this day. What you see with the Gen 5 guns is the gun actually dips below line of sight because of being over sprung. This causes the shooter to have to bring the sights back up to the point that you are driving the sights to, causing both time and extra effort below a .30 split. I guess it's Glocks fault by your logic, huh? The truth of the matter is manufacturers don't optimize spring weights in pistols. It's not their job. The Gen5, for instance, was built around the 147 Grain G2. The way that the gun is sprung to accommodate the G2, as well as the other popular defensive style loads is a balancing act.

The M&P is oversprung as well. To a lesser degree than the Glock. That's why people like Frank Proctor optimize the gun with a different spring to keep the gun from dipping. Same with the Glock, same with......the P320.

So, no, it's not "my opinion". It's the result of a shit load of shooting and research into various weapons and what their recoil impulse contributes or takes away from speed shooting. The P320 shines at .20 splits. The 2.0 is about .17-18 split hot point. The Gen5 guns? .25-.28.

You want to talk about a noticeable difference? Look at the PX4 in slow motion. There's one that I will give you has "less recoil".



Actually, it IS your opinion. Just as it was my opinion that all of the other guns shot faster for me. Your split times and "shit load of shooting and research" produced different results as mine. That's not surprising.

I find it comical that you accuse gun manufacturers of over springing their guns. That is also your opinion. My opinion is that a gun that has an excellent reputation with civilians and law enforcement and is very reliable is silly. It would be over sprung only if it causes problems.

I'm a much bigger fan of Sig Sauer than all other manufacturers. I simply reported the results of me shooting one after the other with the same ammo at identical targets. The P320 was not the easiest to shoot fast accurately.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Cous2492,
 
Posts: 545 | Location: Ohio | Registered: April 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
jljones
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I guess you run into flat earthers on every topic occasionally.



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"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37117 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ryanp225
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Why must we always end up in pissing matches? God forbid someone disagrees with someone else. I guess everyone believes they are the foremost expert on all things. Roll Eyes
 
Posts: 10849 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
P320Mac
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Mr. Jones on recoil: "Recoil spring weights. Guns being under or over sprung play a much bigger role. And oddly, they are generally over sprung."

. . . and Gen5 optimized for "147 Grain G2"

I deal with strength limited competitors and am interested to know source of optimum recoil-springs AND a description of G2 round.

Have been experimenting with 147 grain rounds, but, so far, results have been inconclusive - suspect too much powder. Mac


Mac in Michigan
 
Posts: 504 | Location: Below the Bridge in Michigan | Registered: July 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
P320Mac
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147 Grain G2

OK Google informed about "G2"

Mac


Mac in Michigan
 
Posts: 504 | Location: Below the Bridge in Michigan | Registered: July 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ryanp225
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:


The M&P is oversprung as well. To a lesser degree than the Glock. That's why people like Frank Proctor optimize the gun with a different spring to keep the gun from dipping. Same with the Glock, same with......the P320.



This is really interesting. Do you know where I can find the recommended spring weights for a particular load? Is there any concern of damage or premature wear due to having too light of spring?
 
Posts: 10849 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
BuddyChryst
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There isn’t gonna be a guide based on ammo. Well, maybe there is somewhere, but I kinda doubt it. Cuz each manufacturer has different slide weights, lock-ups...several factors that go into it. And spring weight is a total balancing act. Too much and the slide is hard to manipulate and the muzzle dips when it goes into battery. It may also cause timing issues, especially in smaller pistols. On the extreme end, you may run into short stroking on lighter loads. Too little spring weight and you may not have reliable return to battery, even failure to feed in extreme cases, increased wear, and a sharper felt recoil.

I would venture to guess that most pistols are intentionally slightly oversprung. I’d think a great number of people don’t do maintenance beyond cleaning and it allows for spring wear. At the same time, it sounds like SIG did a lot of playing with variables, particularly slide weight (having all different kinds of lightening cuts).

All that said, I’m no engineer. Though I’ve also heard engineers having a learning curve applying what they know to firearms.

Since this all kinda started with bore axis...I’ve had a question for the bore axis bible thumpers that no one answers: I understand bore axis causes muzzle rise because of physics, but at what point does physics stop happening? Cuz my understanding is those same physics apply as the slide returns forward. And as we see from this discussion, can actually lead to muzzle dip instead of the oft-complained-about muzzle rise. Just looking for any explanation behind “because physics.”


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Posts: 1860 | Registered: June 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
jljones
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryanp225:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:


The M&P is oversprung as well. To a lesser degree than the Glock. That's why people like Frank Proctor optimize the gun with a different spring to keep the gun from dipping. Same with the Glock, same with......the P320.



This is really interesting. Do you know where I can find the recommended spring weights for a particular load? Is there any concern of damage or premature wear due to having too light of spring?


The heavier loads run really flat with a #13 pound spring. For instance 147 grain Precision Delta or American Eagle is pretty sweet. You can reuse the factory guide rod, and it is a cheap, cheap way to optimize your pistols recoil set up. In your other thread, the 5 inch would absolutely be banging with a 13 pound. I have them in all my 2.0's, except the 3.6. Mainly because it has a shorter recoil system, and I haven't found a spring to fit yet.

Slo mo video shows that generally the spring doesn't degrade till about 3500-4000 rounds. I change mine every 2500 or so because they are so cheap.



www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 37117 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
P320Mac
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Great observations from Mr. Jones. My interpretation is that for M&P9 M2.0 pistols of (at least) full size height (5" and 4.25") an optimum recoil spring will exert 13 pounds-force when collapsed (slide all the way back) using bullets of a shape similar to that of Speer "G2" (the shape of one of Precision's 147).

[I assume that "banging" indicates a desirable outcome]

I will try to load some with Precision 147 with less than 4 grains of WSF and see what occurs. The 4 grain examples did not shoot well.


Mac in Michigan
 
Posts: 504 | Location: Below the Bridge in Michigan | Registered: July 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
grumpy1
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Two good choices IMO. I would personally go with M&P 2.0. I had a chance to try out the M&P 2.0 Compact 3.6 at LGS factory shoot last weekend. I only was able to try 10 rounds at 15 feet but 7 of those 10 rounds were in a .8 inch group just left of center. A larger back strap would probably get me dead center. Sweet size for CCW too. I like it.
 
Posts: 9737 | Location: Northern Illinois | Registered: March 20, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ryanp225
Still finding my way
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Ryanp225:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:


The M&P is oversprung as well. To a lesser degree than the Glock. That's why people like Frank Proctor optimize the gun with a different spring to keep the gun from dipping. Same with the Glock, same with......the P320.



This is really interesting. Do you know where I can find the recommended spring weights for a particular load? Is there any concern of damage or premature wear due to having too light of spring?


The heavier loads run really flat with a #13 pound spring. For instance 147 grain Precision Delta or American Eagle is pretty sweet. You can reuse the factory guide rod, and it is a cheap, cheap way to optimize your pistols recoil set up. In your other thread, the 5 inch would absolutely be banging with a 13 pound. I have them in all my 2.0's, except the 3.6. Mainly because it has a shorter recoil system, and I haven't found a spring to fit yet.

Slo mo video shows that generally the spring doesn't degrade till about 3500-4000 rounds. I change mine every 2500 or so because they are so cheap.


Thanks man!

I got a chance to shoot my 5" last night and was very impressed with it. Very flat shooting and came back on target quickly. I can't wait to see how it does with the 13# spring. I'll just have to order a bag full and remember to replace them at your recommended intervals.

I really appreciate the info. Big Grin
 
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