quote:

Originally posted by Udo:
If I read your comments correctly,I think you are implying that the Hawes relationship with Sauer was late or after the relationship with Browning.

No, I think it was concurrent, but I think Hawes offered the 9mm and .38 Super versions of the P220 longer than Browning, since Browning appears to have discontinued these chamberings for the BDA in 1978.

Now, here's a treat for you. I put this together just today. I've been planning to do this for a long time but never got around to it. Have you ever seen a Hawes catalog? These are two pages of Hawes' catalog. This appeared in the November, 1979 issue of Guns and Shooting magazine. I don't think this publication lasted very long. The magazine in which this catalog appeared, I got in a box full of old gun magazines at a gunshow many years ago. Serendipity.

Did we know that Hawes assigned their own model numbers to SIG-Sauer pistols? And did we know that Hawes also imported the P230, in all three calibers? .380 ACP; .32 ACP; 9x18mm Police. How do ya like that? However, just because these pistols appeared in a catalog, that doesn't mean they were ever imported. I've never seen a P230 with Hawes import markings, and I would say the rarest of the rare of Hawes SIG-Sauer pistols would be the 9x18mm Police chambering of the P230.

Model 745 - P220 in .45 ACP
Model 790 - P220 in 9MM Parabellum
Model 795 - P220 in .38 Super

Model 740 - P230 in 9x18mm Police
Model 738 - P230 in .380 ACP
Model 732 - P230 in .32 ACP



So, you can see that Hawes was still offering the P220 in 9mm and .38 Super a year after Browning discontinued these chamberings of the BDA, but I think Hawes and Browning began importation of the P220/BDA at right about the same time- mid to late 1977.

And I wouldn't attempt to determine a time line via serial numbers. Much like Smith&Wesson, these SIG pistols don't seem to have left the factory in a precise sequential order.



.

Never knew any of this, great thread, thanks Para and all.

I hate to have to watermark the Hawes catalog image, but this is a rare catalog and as sure as I'm sitting here, my work will end up on some other sites.

Cool.

I didn't know that about the P230. I'll have to be on the lookout for one.

The J.P. Sauer & Sohn revolver is perfect in 44 Magnum. Mine has the Hawes marking as well.

They also were available in 22lr, 45 Long Colt, and 357 Magnum as well.

Good stuff!!!
Thank you Para

Does anyone know if Hawes ever imported surplus SIGs? I kinda wonder whether the company intended to bring in surplus .32s and 9x18s or piggyback production runs on a Japanese or German order from SIG in order to be able to sell those P230s.

quote:

Originally posted by stiab:

quote:

Originally posted by hjs157:
Since ~1974, all SAAMI spec .38 Super ammunition has been head stamped +P.

quote:

Originally posted by mag318:
I don't want to beat this BDA up so I'll be looking for some non +P ammunition to feed it.

Non +P .38 Super is available, look for Armscor and Fiocchi. Neither the boxes or brass is marked +P, and I have verified the lower velocities. Also, PMC is marked +P, but the chrono results do not indicate that it is. Any of those 3 brands would not beat up your gun.

While I clearly misspoke when I stated all .38 Super is head stamped +P, it is important to understand since 1974 the official SAAMI designation for this cartridge has been .38 Super +P. Apparently some manufactures have since dropped the +P designation. Though an exercise in semantics, by definition all .38 Super is +P when compared to the .38 ACP on which it is based. In todays vernacular, the cartridge would be called .38 ACP +P instead of .38 Super, negating the need to have added the +P designation in 1974. Unfortunately, everyone generically refers to the cartridge as .38 Super, implying the +P variation is hotter than the "standard" load. Adding to the confusion, most modern .38 Super +P ammunition is loaded much lighter than the original which pushed a 130 gr. bullet @ 1300 fps. To illustrate this point, PMC offers a 130 gr. bullet at 1100 fps while Fiocchi uses a 129 gr. bullet at 1150 fps. Interestingly, PMC applies the +P designation while Fiocchi does not. As mentioned, neither of these loads will harm the BDA.

quote:

Originally posted by hjs157:


Adding to the confusion, most modern .38 Super +P ammunition is loaded much lighter than the original which pushed a 130 gr. bullet @ 1300 fps.

I respectfully disagree, and believe that is just an urban legend frequently posted and reposted on the internet. I collect 38 Super ammo, and have over 40 factory boxes.

The old ammo I have includes some that was originally issued to the OSS during WW2, and was also found in the old FBI building when they relocated in 1974.

Ten or so years ago I did a chrono comparison between older and newer 38 Super, and found that recent ammo was just as fast as the older examples I have, and posted the results on both the Sig and S&W forums. This excluded the Armscor and Fiocchi, which is intentionally downloaded and not +P. I probably still have the numbers somewhere. Also, I have searched old catalogs and found none that show the 1300 fps number, which is often quoted.

quote:

Originally posted by stiab:
This excluded the Armscor and Fiocchi, which is intentionally downloaded and not +P.

At what pressure does .38 Super cease being +P? Clearly, manufacturers do not agree upon this number. While Armscor and Fiocchi intentionally download their cartridges and drop the +P designation, the official cartridge name remains .38 Super +P. If these companies began similarly downloading .357 while dropping Magnum from the name, would it be considered -P? The point I am illustrating is +P as applied to .38 Super does not mean the same as when applied to .38 Special or 9mm. Unlike these cartridges, +P does not indicate a higher pressure variation of the standard .38 Super load. The standard .38 Super IS the +P load. Again, this is simply an exercise in semantics and your point is well taken. There are milder loads commercially available in this caliber. However, to refer to them separately as standard or +P in the traditional sense is technically incorrect.

Aquila is at the other end of the spectrum from PMC, and averaged 1255 fps in their 130 grain load. This was faster than any of the 40, 50, or 60 year old ammo I tested, all of which was 130g. PMC is labed as +P, but at only 1098 fps average with a 115g bullet, it surely does not produce +P results, or even approach standard 9mm with the same weight bullet.

Great thread, learned so much, thanks all involved!!!

I love the history of these pistols. I've had 3 BDAs in years past, 2 .45 Autos and a beautiful HH 9mm which I never fired. Guys, Paras 7.65 gun is a most excellent example. He and .38supersig have posted photos of the 7.65 guns barrel contour. It is so unique. If either is so inclined and has the photos saved, they would be a nice addition to this topic. Thank you.

Here ya go!

That is so cool.. Next time stand a loaded cartridge with it.. . Thank you.

So is the consensus that current *P loads will not beat up my BDA 38 Super. This is just going to be an occasional range toy, that I may just shoot once or twice a year. The only P220 I ever saw with a cracked frame was a 9mm that had several thousand rounds thru it.

quote:

Originally posted by mag318:
So is the consensus that current *P loads will not beat up my BDA 38 Super. This is just going to be an occasional range toy, that I may just shoot once or twice a year. The only P220 I ever saw with a cracked frame was a 9mm that had several thousand rounds thru it.

Correct. As an occasional range load, neither PMC Bronze 130 gr. FMJ @ 1100 fps (marked .38 Super Auto +P) nor Fiocchi 129 gr. FMJ @ 1150 fps (simply marked .38 Superauto) will cause accelerated wear. Even Aguila 130 gr. FMJ @ 1220 fps (also marked .38 Super +P) should be fine in your P220. Your pistol was designed to accommodate this caliber. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you discover the PMC load is actually a bit light for your pistol. I've experienced very weak extraction with the PMC product in a full size 1911. Of course, I do not recommend any of the boutique loads available in this caliber - some of which drive a ~125 bullet @ ~1350 fps. These are truly hot rounds and could potentially harm an alloy framed pistol.

I have one of these. I remember looking in some reference saying there 700 or so imported. I can’t remember number. I also have 8 or 9 magazines for t.

I've been enjoying this informative discussion. I remember these guns being distributed by Hawes and Browning, but never researched further as to the details. The 852 number is what I've most often seen quoted for the .38 Supers imported through Browning. I was already a fan of the traditional Browning Hi Power, and admit I did not initially know what to make of these alloy framed "Brownings", with "sheet metal" slides. A few years later, I realized my error in being skeptical of these guns, and even carried a SIG for several years every working day.

I was a .38 Super shooter and reloader before the Browning and Hawes SIGs were imported, so have long understood that marking 38 Super as .38 Super +P, was just a SAAMI administrative change for safety's sake, not indicative of an increase in pressure over 38 Super not marked +P. That being said, I've always preferred my Supers to be steel framed. I've never heard of an an issue with the alloy framed Browning, Hawes, or SIG .38 Supers, the heavier all steel guns chambered for this cartridge are just a personal preference of mine.

FWIW, the warmest factory .38 Super ball I've encountered is the GECO, which is NOT marked +P, and averages ~1350 FPS in my 5" .38 Supers. Warmer yet, is the factory ELEY ".38 Super Comp" ball that averages ~1390 FPS in my 5" supers.

quote:

Originally posted by rock185:

FWIW, the warmest factory .38 Super ball I've encountered is the GECO, which is NOT marked +P, and averages ~1350 FPS in my 5" .38 Supers. Warmer yet, is the factory ELEY ".38 Super Comp" ball that averages ~1390 FPS in my 5" supers.

rock185 - excellent first hand information! Buffalo Bore offers their 124 gr. JHP at an advertised velocity of 1350 fps. In your experience, do loads at this pressure/velocity accelerate wear in a steel-on-steel 5" 1911? Thank you for your reply.

Sadly this magazine page is undated, but I thought everyone might enjoy. Check the prices.