These SIGs in 7.65x21mm AKA .30 Luger were mainly intended for the Italian market, where 9x19mm is not allowed for civilians.

Here's my example, which I bought from Cherry's Fine Guns in Greensboro, NC. It came in the blue plastic, piano hinge case (usually associated with the P6), with the same manual you see in p08's pic on the previous page of this thread.

If you look carefully, you can just make out the Italian Catalog number on the front strap. Serial number G106231, proofed 1980.

Here are my 7.65mm pistols (the Glock has an aftermarket barrel). One of my favorite calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:
P08- that is the first time I’ve seen a Hawes P220 in 38 Super. What a great gun. How long have you had it, and where did you find it?

From what I have found in some very sketchy research is that Hawes imported 15 38 Super P220's. I do not remember where I got this gun, would have to crack open my bound book. I can say it was well over 35 years ago. I used to actually shoot it at times. But when I found out how rare it was I stopped.

quote:

Originally posted by .38supersig:
Here are my 7.65mm pistols (the Glock has an aftermarket barrel). One of my favorite calibers.

You may not be able to answer, but since the 30 Luger and 7.62 x 25 are close dimensions, could a Tokarev barrel be made for a Glock ?

You should be able to make a 7.62x25 Tokarev Glock if you find a good barrel manufacturer.

Custom barrels can be spendy. You'll also need a custom recoil spring assembly as well.

I have two Glock 21s that now run on .38 Super. I'm thinking about getting into 9x25 Dillon as well.

quote:

Originally posted by .38supersig:
You should be able to make a 7.62x25 Tokarev Glock if you find a good barrel manufacturer.

Custom barrels can be spendy. You'll also need a custom recoil spring assembly as well.

I have two Glock 21s that now run on .38 Super. I'm thinking about getting into 9x25 Dillon as well.

Thanks for the input. So, a Conversion for a Glock would have to be on a large frame model , due to the length of the cartridge.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sunset_Va,

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by p08:
From what I have found in some very sketchy research is that Hawes imported 15 38 Super P220's.

I previously owned this Hawes imported .38 Super during my P220 years. It was sold along with all of the others when I purged my entire P220 collection a few years ago. I had no idea they were so scarce.

quote:

Originally posted by p08:

quote:

Originally posted by blindref:
P08- that is the first time I’ve seen a Hawes P220 in 38 Super. What a great gun. How long have you had it, and where did you find it?

From what I have found in some very sketchy research is that Hawes imported 15 38 Super P220's. I do not remember where I got this gun, would have to crack open my bound book. I can say it was well over 35 years ago. I used to actually shoot it at times. But when I found out how rare it was I stopped.

Thank you for the response. I don’t blame you for not shooting it. It’s a hot round so it makes sense not to beat up such a rare and significant piece of Sig Sauer history.

quote:

Originally posted by hjs157:
I previously owned this Hawes imported .38 Super during my P220 years. It was sold along with all of the others when I purged my entire P220 collection a few years ago. I had no idea they were so scarce.

Yes, they are scarce, but the estimate of only 15 imported is, I believe, wishful thinking. I would think that it's more along the lines of at least 100, and probably more than that.

The fact that at least two of them have shown up in this thread makes the estimate of 15 seem quite unrealistic. Think of the attrition rate of products such as handguns, and extend it out over 45 years.

Browning imported something like 11,000 BDAs (this is from memory- that estimate may be low by a couple of thousand), with about a thousand of them being chambered in .38 Super. Hawes was a small importer and lacked the distribution network of Browning, and the brand name of SIG-Sauer was not widely known in the 1970s, so let's say that Hawes imported perhaps only 15% (just a guess) of Browning's 11 or 13,000 or so BDAs, then extrapolate the numbers.

quote:

Here's my example, which I bought from Cherry's Fine Guns in Greensboro, NC.

I remember when they had that gun, and a couple more unusual P220s at the same time. I looked at them on line and considered it, but did not have the cash at the time. Always wondered what happened to them, glad you got one.

OK, here's an excerpt from an American Rifleman article from (I think) 1978. Notice that the 9mm and .38 Super BDAs were already discontinued and the article states 2740 BDAs in 9mm and 852 in .38 Super for a combined total of 3592 in those calibers. Somewhere in my materials, I have the total for the .45 ACP versions, and I think it's around 9000 pistols, so that would be about 12,500 total production.



Also, while searching through old research materials, I found photos labeled "P220 with BDA serial number", which is a real mish-mash. These pics show a P220, no high polish, no BDA grip panels, and it has a 7.65/.30 Luger barrel. The serial number, partially obscured in the pics, begins 395RP, and on the frontstrap of the pistol is stamped "BDA 45" and also an Italian catalog number. "395" was Browning's code for the .45 ACP version of the BDA. and "RP" indicates a manufacture date of 1978. The pistol has the first type slide. I'm guessing SIG-Sauer assembled this frankenpistol out of leftover parts, for the Italian market. The pistol has the same type of P6 box- blue plastic, piano hinge lid, and has the same P220 manual shown on the first page of this thread. IOW, it's packaged the same as my P220 7.65 for the Italian market. So, BDA .45 ACP frame, and a 7.65mm slide/barrel combo, with the 395-prefix serial number added to the slide.






Also, I found pics of a BDA in 9mm from 1977, but in the chintzy Hawes P220 box, with the same ratty yellow foam and plastic bag. One pic shows the end label on the box and it's serialed to the pistol. Go figure.

A lot of great information here so many thanks to all who have responded. I probably won't shoot my new BDA a lot but I do want to have at least one range session with it. Looking for 38 Super ammo I see that the vast majority is rated +P. I don't want to beat this BDA up so I'll be looking for some non +P ammunition to feed it.

Since ~1974, all SAAMI spec .38 Super ammunition has been head stamped +P. This was done to avoid confusion with it's parent cartridge, i.e. .38 ACP. Your BDA will be fine with a moderate diet of commercial .38 Super "+P" loads. If pressure is a concern, you may wish to try PMC's 130 gr. FMJ. With a stated muzzle velocity of 1100 fps, its rather anemic.

blindref:

Found the original receipt. Got the gun in trade way back November 25 1990 so 32 years ago. Traded a Desert Eagle for it even up and show I had $525 back then. Adjusted for inflation would be like paying $1119.90 today. Could make some money to the right person, but will probably break even.

quote:

Originally posted by p08:
blindref:

Found the original receipt. Got the gun in trade way back November 25 1990 so 32 years ago. Traded a Desert Eagle for it even up and show I had $525 back then. Adjusted for inflation would be like paying $1119.90 today. Could make some money to the right person, but will probably break even.

That’s a long time ago! Personally, I think you made out well on that trade but I’m not a fan of DE’s.

That’s a great gun and I’m sure you could find a few people that would be willing to allow you to make a profit on it. I for one would be happy to be its next caretaker.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
OK, here's an excerpt from an American Rifleman article from (I think) 1978. Notice that the 9mm and .38 Super BDAs were already discontinued and the article states 2740 BDAs in 9mm and 852 in .38 Super for a combined total of 3592 in those calibers. Somewhere in my materials, I have the total for the .45 ACP versions, and I think it's around 9000 pistols, so that would be about 12,500 total production.



Also, while searching through old research materials, I found photos labeled "P220 with BDA serial number", which is a real mish-mash. These pics show a P220, no high polish, no BDA grip panels, and it has a 7.65/.30 Luger barrel. The serial number, partially obscured in the pics, begins 395RP, and on the frontstrap of the pistol is stamped "BDA 45" and also an Italian catalog number. "395" was Browning's code for the .45 ACP version of the BDA. and "RP" indicates a manufacture date of 1978. The pistol has the first type slide. I'm guessing SIG-Sauer assembled this frankenpistol out of leftover parts, for the Italian market. The pistol has the same type of P6 box- blue plastic, piano hinge lid, and has the same P220 manual shown on the first page of this thread. IOW, it's packaged the same as my P220 7.65 for the Italian market. So, BDA .45 ACP frame, and a 7.65mm slide/barrel combo, with the 395-prefix serial number added to the slide.






Also, I found pics of a BDA in 9mm from 1977, but in the chintzy Hawes P220 box, with the same ratty yellow foam and plastic bag. One pic shows the end label on the box and it's serialed to the pistol. Go figure.

Thanks for taking the time to post this. So much fascinating information and pictures. It reminds me of Smith & Wesson Post War transition period guns.

By the way, those production numbers of 9mm and.38 Super BDAs- I would say that those came directly from Browning Arms. It's an American Rifleman article, stating that these two chamberings of the BDA have been discontinued, which then says in the very next sentence "According to Browning..."

The author of the article got his information directly from Browning Arms. I think this is crystal clear, so, those production numbers are correct: 2740 BDAs in 9mm and 852 in .38 Super.

Also, I've been contemplating the mystery BDA 9mm I found in my old research materials.

Here we have a Browning BDA which gives every indication of being imported by Hawes. Same crappy blue box (these boxes really are insubstantial. My Hawes-imported P220 came in the same box as you see on the first page of ths thread, and it's crushed, just like p08's box), same ratty yellow foam insert, same plastic bag. This is without a doubt, Hawes packaging, and I am certain these pistols were not shipped in these boxes. These boxes were supplied stateside by Hawes.

Same kind of end label, everything. So, this BDA is a Hawes import. The question is why. Well, the American Rifleman article indicates 9mm and .38 Super BDAs were discontinued early on by Browning- after only about a year, as a matter of fact. So, what does SIG-Sauer do with the remaining parts and assembled pistols they have on hand when Browning says "no more of those"?

Well, one thing they can do with the already assembled pistols is turn to their other American importer, Hawes, and I think that's what we see here. It's somewhat bizarre, though, because thees P220s have "Browning" rollmarked into the slides and emblazoned on the right grip panel. I imagine, though, that there were only a handful of BDAs imported by Hawes, and I imagine that somewhere on the pistol you see in this photo- under the grips or stamped on the obverse of the barrel hood, is a Hawes import mark.

This would also explain my BDA .38 Super, with its SIG-Sauer serial number. It would explain the frankengun we see above in this thread, and it would explain Dusty Dave's BDA chambered in 7.65x21mm, because Browning Arms never offered this chambering. All of these pistols were assembled by SIG-Sauer from parts leftover BDA parts.

Regarding the box, you can see in the lower right of the photo, Browning's BDA box. The crappy blue box is Hawes, all the way.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

I’m really enjoying your research in these early pistols and especially the oddities.
If I read your comments correctly,I think you are implying that the Hawes relationship with Sauer was late or after the relationship wit Browning.
I know that was my best guess also until last year when a nine millimeter Hawes imprinted p220 was sold online in a Hawes correct box and label.
The surprise to me was the serial. G 104 1xx with HG proof marks..
This seems to be much earlier than I suspected for Hawes to Be in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by hjs157:
Since ~1974, all SAAMI spec .38 Super ammunition has been head stamped +P.

quote:

Originally posted by mag318:
I don't want to beat this BDA up so I'll be looking for some non +P ammunition to feed it.

Non +P .38 Super is available, look for Armscor and Fiocchi. Neither the boxes or brass is marked +P, and I have verified the lower velocities. Also, PMC is marked +P, but the chrono results do not indicate that it is. Any of those 3 brands would not beat up your gun.