quote:

Originally posted by RNshooter:
I am curious to know what unique value the Mantis system provided provided to you. What specifically did it do that was new and better? I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a demo.

Bruce

some videos are here

https://mantisx.com/


IIRC someone else was using a different laser training kit for dry fire, which makes sense you can train indoors and without ammo, and get results on target hits.

Can't remember if it was LaserHit or the Laserlyte QuickTyme....

Ben Stoeger's latest book, Breakthrough Marksmanship, is pretty much all diagnosis and correction of common problems that he sees in his classes. It is a one-two night read, cost $20, and an infinitely great value.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Mantis X3

...
Agree that basic dry fire helps you id problems,, however that presumes the person doing the dry fire knows what to look for, and also how to correct the problem.

Most don't have a JLJ in their range bag to pull out whenever they need input, and that will require Travel to a course, hotels, etc ie money. Which is a great idea.

While we can say "practice practice practice" it doesn't do any good if you keep practicing the wrong thing the wrong way, you'll just end up with bad results. Maybe this will help someone make changes and see the results easier.

In golf you see a pro, get filmed, in basketball they have digital analysis cameras
that can show you your shot, and with a coach, improve.

Its not the panacea for poor shooting, however it might help id the problem. Addressing it and fixing the situation is another thing, altogether....

If someone wants to buy it and uses it properly to identify issues, then why all the fuss, it's still going to take range time and physical interaction, perhaps even coaching.

You are presuming that attaching this unit can actually do those things...take the place of profession training and diagnosis or the place of a professional looking at video and giving feedback.

Somehow I doubt it. I'd bet that if you took 2 novice shooters and had 1 just use a Mantis and the gave the other 3 hrs of professional instruction (about the cost equivalent of the Mantis), then they dry-fired for equal amounts of practice time as the Mantis user...the one with the instruction, then dry-fire would shoot circles around the Mantis-only user.

I don’t disagree instruction and execution make the best combination however my point was adding this could allow one to fine tune or I’d something that’s important. It could also show you if you are getting what the instructor is telling you to do corrected. It’s just a tool you add to learn

It wold be interesting to see how two novice shooters would compare if one used it and. The other didn’t prior to hitting the range for instruction

All this criticism of the MantisX is a bit disappointing. Simulation training combined with live training is a well established practice for improving performance in any field. I live an hour a hour from any range in Northern Virginia. So I use a MantisX with a Cool Fire. My scores have definitely improved at the range and on the course by combining the two.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
I don’t disagree instruction and execution make the best combination however my point was adding this could allow one to fine tune or I’d something that’s important. It could also show you if you are getting what the instructor is telling you to do corrected. It’s just a tool you add to learn

It wold be interesting to see how two novice shooters would compare if one used it and. The other didn’t prior to hitting the range for instruction

The problem is that even the "coaching sessions" are absolutely horrid. They give really bad advice, and if someone is looking to become something other than a "better mediocre shooter" they will suffer from systems like this. It builds a YUGE sense of false security of skill that isn't there. It is like some karate systems that rely on "hit me like this" because it doesn't provide durable persistent skill. It creates illusions and people cry "because technology". Problem is that they are too dumb to even realize they are being taken.

The whole idea of two novice shooters depends on mindset. Give me one who wants to actually be better that watches decent, vetted how to train in dry fire on Youtube, and one that is a Mantis XXX fanboi, and I'll show you how silly the whole magic pill training idea is.

quote:

The whole idea of two novice shooters depends on mindset. Give me one who wants to actually be better that watches decent, vetted how to train in dry fire on Youtube, and one that is a Mantis XXX fanboi, and I'll show you how silly the whole magic pill training idea is.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yep. When it comes to shooing pistols there is really nothing new under the sun. People buy into technology and forget the basics. It is the same in many other fields. Martial arts and learning to play tennis on a high level are two good examples.

quote:

Originally posted by Challer:
All this criticism of the MantisX is a bit disappointing. Simulation training combined with live training is a well established practice for improving performance in any field. I live an hour a hour from any range in Northern Virginia. So I use a MantisX with a Cool Fire. My scores have definitely improved at the range and on the course by combining the two.

Dry fire is simulation, you don’t need the MantisX and it is probably reinforcing a few bad habits.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

Mantis X3

Davenator - send me an email on the unit please, it's in my profile...

HRK. Seems it's misplaced. I'll look you up if it turns up.

Sorry.

Buy one or two of the dry fire books from the greats. Put down your phone. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Mr Jones....will you recommend one or two of these books, please ?

Austin from Mantis here, confirming there are no shills in this thread.

The purpose of Mantis is not to discount or replace the value of an instructor. It is not the end-all, be-all, magic pill solution that will fix anything instantly. We never make that promise anywhere. We only promise that it will be nitpicky enough to make you work harder, not less.

It IS a technology-driven tool that allows shooters to see things they cannot physically see with the naked eye, due to the limitation of our ocular sample rate. There are some things we just cannot see, so we interpret, and sometimes we interpret incorrectly.

A risk of dry fire without any sort of feedback is training scars, and Mantis allows you to get instant feedback before you drive bad habits deep.

In live fire, Mantis allows you to separate mechanics from other issues (e.g. sighting), by isolating shooter-induced movements so you can correctly identify areas of improvement.

The USMC and Army both ran separate, independent studies comparing shooter performance and improvement with and without the use of Mantis. We can't say anything about the results (yet), other than to say we wish we could share those results.

There are varying paths to expert Marksmanship, JLJones being one of them. Using technology is also a path to that end, as our data indicates:

(here's a sampling: https://mantisx.com/pages/10-million )

Technology and humans are not mutually exclusive. Does Mantis work better for some than others? Absolutely. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater seems to be a bit presumptuous.

quote:

Originally posted by Genorogers:
Buy one or two of the dry fire books from the greats. Put down your phone. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Mr Jones....will you recommend one or two of these books, please ?

I have Steve Anderson's Refinement and Repetition. Ben Stoeger and Mike Seeklander also have solid books. Pick ONE and run it for a year.

Note on Refinement and Repetition. The first 12 drills are his core and he recommends running them every time you dry practice. The rest of the drills can be done as you feel like it. Secondly, he now recommends that you do each drill for an allotted time, say 3-6 minutes, instead of the number of reps listed for each drill.

Thanks Davenator......I'll buy Steve Anderson's Refinement & Repetition and work with it for a year. I appreciate the help.

I might get Ben Stoeger's book for my son but he out shoots me so bad now I hate to get embarrassed more.

Hey Austin,

Just work on getting me a rail adaptor for my HK USPc 45/HK45C! Thanks!!

You can't see all your movements during dry fire. Using a MantisX captures all the subtleties we humans misss.

quote:

Originally posted by Strambo:

quote:

Originally posted by Challer:
All this criticism of the MantisX is a bit disappointing. Simulation training combined with live training is a well established practice for improving performance in any field. I live an hour a hour from any range in Northern Virginia. So I use a MantisX with a Cool Fire. My scores have definitely improved at the range and on the course by combining the two.

Dry fire is simulation, you don’t need the MantisX and it is probably reinforcing a few bad habits.

"Bad habits" in dry fire are manifest in live fire.

Dry fire is not meant to be exclusive; it's meant to reinforce lessons learned in live fire, and to focus on those elements of draw, press, trigger control, reset, etc, that improve speed and accuracy.

Any errors are immediately obvious when one fires a round.

An electronic measuring device such as the mantisX might be useful to supplement proper training, but frankly I'm a lot more interested in seeing what my sights are doing, where the round is going, etc. If the cell phone application tells me that I pulled my shot low, so does the target.

I'd much rather focus on seeing the front sight run up and down like a sewing machine than try to draw my focus off at an iphone screen to tell me what I can see downrange.

If I'm dry firing and press out and prep and press the trigger on the way there, I can follow through with the sights on a dot on the wall and see immediately what's happened with the pistol.

The mantisX cannot replace the large quantity of ammunition that's going to be required to advance or get better, nor can it replace ample dry fire. It may be useful in refining the dry fire, but certainly is not necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by Ogie:
Hey Austin,

Just work on getting me a rail adaptor for my HK USPc 45/HK45C! Thanks!!

It's on our to-do list!

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I'd much rather focus on seeing the front sight run up and down like a sewing machine than try to draw my focus off at an iphone screen to tell me what I can see downrange.

One of the things we've noticed in the tens of thousands of shooters the MantisX has analyzed is that because so much happens so quickly, the human eye conjectures what happened - and sometimes incorrectly. Oftentimes, what we think the movement was is not what the movement actually was. The MantisX can confirm or deny with actual data, training the brain more efficiently.

It may well be that some of those subtleties are unimportant.

I find that in many things, the tendency is to over think a problem. Drawing out movement under a microscope sounds great on paper, but may be an answer to an unnecessary question.

It's a bit like some medical tests now recommended against; they lead to unnecessary heartache and procedures that shouldn't be done, and the current recommendations discourage testing without cause. Likewise, trying to calcualte microscale moment of the pistol, which is not a scalpel but a table saw, may cause one to focus on the unimportant.

If you can't see the sight movement, chances are that the minute movement captured aren't important.

Before you lecture me further on it, I'm a customer and bought your system; actually bought them for christmas presents for my kids. I won't be buying more.

If I can get the schedule, I'll probably take more of Mr. Jones training, however, as I found it infinitely more useful and relevant.

My mistake, my MantisX works on my HK45C. Cool!