Big fan of Sigs, and the P320 in particular. I have 8 classic Sigs, and 3 P320s, and enjoy them all. But Sig has a few corporate problems(from the view of a consumer who likes their product)

1. Their QC is not what it used to be. While I am not concerned about the drop safety issue with the 320(it passed the industry standard tests like all other current pistols), but issues with the 365 and newly manufactured classic series, while over blown by internet commandos, still exist. And perception IS reality.

2. Failure to support discontinued models. How many folded slide 220/226s were manufactured with internal extractors? While most of us realize that an extractor failure is rare, it would be nice to have a spare, at a fair price, for those who have several models of each pistol. I was going to get a 239 when they were discontinued. I would have still bought one if I thought I could have found magazines and recoil springs. I don’t expect Sig to support a model that is obsolete, but why can’t Sig tell us in advance that a model will be discontinued(ie 239,225,224,etc) and support it long enough to buy spare magazines, springs, etc.

3. I really like the 320-fits my hand much better than the Glock. But other than the modularity of the grips(which I think is better than just backstraps), the modularity is over stated, mainly due to the cost of conversion kits. When looking at internet prices, a complete gun is only about $100-125 more than a conversion kit, and you get at least one more magazine, a takedown lever, and an entire FCU that you don’t get with the conversion kits. I have a conversion kit for my 226, but I got it on sale. If Sig lowered the price, the conversion kits would sell better, and the modularity of the 320 would be better appreciated by those who have 320s.

4. Sig has drastically reduced the number of variations it offers for each model, which was probably warranted from a manufacturing point. But many of the current variants also lack some of the features many Sigophiles wanted. How about asking the consumers what they would like to have in a 220/226/229/320(what a novel idea- ask the customer what they want and then make it) and then make that variant for a limited time. Like the “gun of the month” they had in 2005, but make it on an annual vs monthly basis. Each year a specific 220/226/229/320 variant for the Sig connoisseur(like the M17 commemorative).

Don’t have a degree in business or marketing, so not sure how much of the above is accurate, but I am a consumer and know what I want and will buy.
Rant is now over.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Canik still does okay but their price advantage has eroded as their prices keep edging up. Probably related to them creating their own U.S. distribution channel and dumping Century Arms in the process (yay!).

You wouldn't believe how excited all the little AK nuts (myself emphatically included) are that Zastava's opening its own office and distribution network in the US and leaving Century in a ditch. If they actually bring in parts and find a decent gunsmith they may wind up selling a surprising number of their M85 bolt action rifles as well - everyone wants to love them, but the extractor problems they've had have made that a bit of a PITA. There also seems to be a surprising (to me) amount of interest in the CZ999 and EZ99 pistols.

Excluding all my non discontinued Sigs, I have a 239, a P250 that had issues, and a P224, discontinued, and a slight issue with that. Yes I'm a bit frustrated in there policies, and quality issues I've personally experienced. I bet you could support every discontinued Sig with parts if they would keep them common for 20+ years with a room 20x20. And with all the buildings they have, I think they have the space.


Hence, no new Sig platforms for me.

Oh, forgot my p290rs 9mm. 4 guns in 10 years discontinued.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
Canik still does okay but their price advantage has eroded as their prices keep edging up. Probably related to them creating their own U.S. distribution channel and dumping Century Arms in the process (yay!).

You wouldn't believe how excited all the little AK nuts (myself emphatically included) are that Zastava's opening its own office and distribution network in the US and leaving Century in a ditch. If they actually bring in parts and find a decent gunsmith they may wind up selling a surprising number of their M85 bolt action rifles as well - everyone wants to love them, but the extractor problems they've had have made that a bit of a PITA. There also seems to be a surprising (to me) amount of interest in the CZ999 and EZ99 pistols.

I like Zastava pistols, and hopefully the new distributorship will stock parts that are unavailable elsewhere. I do wish a couple of things, that Zastava would produce the PPZ they designed years back in 7.62 x 25 , or design the small M88A to handle the 7.62 x 25 round.

I have the M88A in 9mm, and tinkered with converting it to 7.62 x 25. The barrel bushing is the holdup.

I think the gun was wounded in a big way by the recal...er...voluntary upgrade.

Like someone already said, there are lots of good options in the $300-400 range. Most average consumers don't see a reason to spend extra $100-200.

Except, as stated above, Glock 19s are moving, and they're $500+ new. I guess they name gets them a premium.

I have to wonder if, marketwide, SIG is really considered a premium brand any more? The quality issues shown in the past several years may be catching up with them.

quote:

Originally posted by scsigs:
Like someone already said, there are lots of good options in the $300-400 range. Most average consumers don't see a reason to spend extra $100-200.

quote:

Someone who wants to save a few bucks on a M&P should just lowball a shop that has a Manual Safety M&P lingering on their shelf, and then spend the couple minutes to convert it

Thanks for the advice. I may be in the market for another M&P soon and I'll be looking for a good deal on a safety model.

I just bought a P320 Carry.

I've been very happy

I first got burned when Colt discontinued the Pony and Pocket 9 due to patent issues. That I could understand.

Then SIG stopped supporting my early P229, P228, P220, P245, P230 and now P239. I'm done with SIG.

I'll stick to 1911 pattern guns (or Glocks). There will always be parts for those.

SIG still catalogs the P220, P229 and P228(sort of) as far as I know.

It's a commodity. Are you the lowest bidder?

Polymer, double stack, striker fired handguns are a saturated market. Is a dealer down the street selling them for $20 less? Are people buying Gen 5 Glocks, M&Ps, or Walthers?

Most of your buyers of new P320s don't care about aftermarket support. And even then, other manufactures have Sig beat. So what's the selling point of a P320 over say, a Glock? Why would someone replace their G19 for a P320 compact?

And I get that it's great for the military or police departments that the fire control unit is the firearm in a P320 but why would I care about that as an individual? I can buy another G19 for almost the same price as the X-Change kit.

In tech there is something called the Peter Thiel rule "Can you do something 10x better than what's currently out there?" For a "fleet managed" gun the P320 is easily 10x better than a Beretta 92FS. But for an individual buying one gun I just don't see the advantage over the Glock or M&P they're already carrying.

I have 3, and I like them a lot. IMO, the P320 is what the Glock should have been all along. It's been 100% reliable over thousands of rounds, easy to maintain, comfortable grip that easily adapted to different sized hands, and even has a very durable finish.

My only complaint right now is the difficulty in obtaining parts, and the price of the conversion kits. I'd like a full-sized slide and barrel, but for the prices they are currently going for I could just about buy a whole new gun. I also want some factory subcompact baseplates, but they are not available anywhere for some reason.

Yeah, I think for value S&W MP 2.0 is hurting the P320 and maybe the Glocks when it comes to new buyers. $400 gets you a M&P 2.0 of your choosing where you need to bump up to $500-700 for a Glock or SIG.

The 320 is a "me too" product. The M&P is also, but the 2.0's are down right cheap! Sig being priced higher and being a little outdated feeling makes it a "meh" me too product imo.

What do I mean by "outdated feeling?" It just feels bigger than it needs to be. The bore axis feels bigger than it needs to be, it feels thick, etc. It doesn't make me go "wow," and it has some weird things about it that make me stay away. Sig being jackasses doesn't help for me personally either, but I know that many don't share my point of view, so that isn't really the cause of slow sales imo. I think it's just meh and a little big, thus slow sales.

The 365 is selling so well because it feels new and unique imo. You pick it up and go "wow!" It doe something other guns don't do. Compare that to when you pick up the 320 and think how odd it feels with that slide standing 10 feet up into the air.

I think the day of the "duty sized," for lack of a better term, compact are numbered. Think G19, 2.0 Compact, 320 etc. At least for the CCW market. I can't believe Sig hasn't moved faster into this new space, but the era of the "slim line" double stack is upon us imo.

Slim pistols like the 48/43X/365 are where it's going to be at imo. Will the G19/320/etc still exist for military and law enforcement and folks with big mitts? Of course, but if I were a cop, I'd happily holster a taller and longer 365 or a G48 with a mag like the 365 over a G19 for my patrol.

Add all that up, why would I go buy a 320 when I already have a bunch of Glocks and M&P's? Diehard Sig guys probably bought their 320's and no one else cares now.

^^^ You say that, but I'm seeing some of them available cheaply enough that I'm thinking the 2022 effect is about to kick in.

quote:

Slim pistols like the 48/43X/365 are where it's going to be at imo.

Slim pistols are where we are going to end being FORCED to be is more like it. Meanwhile I'll stick with my 'outdated' compact Glorps until the day comes that they and their evil hi-capacity mags legislated out of existence.

One of the LGS here had brand new, never issued full size 9mm Sig P320 police trade-ins with night sights in a cardboard box with 3 mags for $399. They got six of them in about a week ago and they were gone within a couple of days. For that price, I had to talk myself out of buying one.

quote:

Originally posted by USMC2054:
One of the LGS here had brand new, never issued full size 9mm Sig P320 police trade-ins with night sights in a cardboard box with 3 mags for $399. They got six of them in about a week ago and they were gone within a couple of days. For that price, I had to talk myself out of buying one.

And there's your commodity. Buy at $400, pass at probably $475, with the ideal price somewhere between those two.

Also, that's a hell of a deal : D