quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
If you are a gun geek you might be put off by current SIG QC (P365, 320 drop issue, models being dropped and not supported etc.)

Results of "current" SIG QC would indicate that the 365 isn't an issue anymore, and has perhaps not been since at least last autumn.

My 2C

The P320 is just another poly striker-fired pistol in an over saturated market segment of good guns. This market segment is completely utilitarian with zero collectibility or heirloom factor. So, you are asking people to spend $500 on a tool that you offer v. a dozen other offerings. So, what does the P320 offer? The modularity of the weapon is unique, but Sig has priced the modules out of the range of being economically sensible for most buyers. Other than the modularity, the P320 is no worse or better than the competition in the market segment.

Note: There are a lot of other tools you can buy for $500 today including a complete AR15.

I imagine when the Legion version of the P320 is released later this year sales will pick up.

I wonder if SIG's declining quality control and bringing out too many defective models too early is catching up with them. I got burned too many times to buy ANY new SIG Firearm until they have been on the Market for a good while. All too often they are recalled and/or cancelled before they develop anywhere near the reputation for quality that SIG once had.

People are figuring out that they just aren't as good as they used to be............dj

I might buy more but I already bought seven.

I found Sig's response as distasteful as many; the denials, the late response, and most offensive, the known problem that had been fixed and addressed on their military offering. That eventually they admitted the truth, in part, and addressed it did little to impress. When the recall was underway, I enquired at several retailers, who claimed they'd never heard of it, and Sig continued to sell "pre-upgrade" pistols even while the issue was known. Not cool.

Why people don't buy the P320 more is a mystery to me, as it's a great pistol. The modular feature doesn't really mean anything to me, but it's a fairly easy pistol to shoot, has a lot of options, and seems to be a fairly reliable, repeatable design.

The P320 is what I gave each of my boys. I may end up buying a few more to fill in the gap; time will tell.

Sig would do well to find a way to bring down the cost of their magazines, and to show better support for what they've already sold. Sig is starting to feel like a flavor of the day company. It's entirely inappropriate to keep offering new models and then dropping them with no support, and the lack of support for models like the P239 is inexcusable.

A P320 X5 will be my next gun purchase.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
I know that countrywide that gun sales are off their peaks. But dayum, have P320 sales just hit a brick wall or what? We can't GIVE these things away (well, figuratively speaking of course).

Since the start of the holiday season last fall, we ran several P320 specials to try to get some interest in the guns. Barely made a blip. Even the more recent SIG Store credit incentive has pretty much been a bust. I've sold a couple of P226s (the line is also aligned with that SIG Store promo), but our P320s just are gathering dust. Two P320 sales in three weeks...one M17, one 320C...it's just BAD. Meanwhile, we sell every frickin' G20 we can get our hands on, and G19 sales continue on their regular steady pace (though G17 sales are almost as dead as P320 sales).

Okay, sniveling whining over.

A good friend of mine owns a successful LGS. He has told me for months, probably even a year, that his P320 sales are DOA. He's had a fairly priced P320 V-TAC on the shelf for a year. it won't sell. He told me that he's considering not restocking with the P320 in any meaningful numbers in the future.

He said that 9mm Glocks, Rugers, and S&W 2.0 Compacts sell as fast as he can get them on shelves.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
A P320 X5 will be my next gun purchase.

You should be able to find one dirt cheap clearance priced! :-D

I'm surprised they sell as much as they do.

I just picked up a x-carry. Very nice pistol, but like has been said the magazine prices are ridiculous. Especially compared to Glock mags

That's across the board. SIG's gone nuts on mag prices.

I stop at gun shops about every week here and there a couple times a week . Sig , Glock are real close in price , Smith 2.0 compacts are 349, Shield 1.0 are 265 . I still see a lot of woman buying guns now.

Sig accessories are over priced, magazines and the X-change kits... Then the QC issues flare up from time to time (I just had the extractor replaced on my 320C).

P320s are old news.

Skinny Glocks are the new hotness.

quote:

Originally posted by rjinaz85308:
I just picked up a x-carry. Very nice pistol, but like has been said the magazine prices are ridiculous. Especially compared to Glock mags

The price difference between a Glock and 320 mag is about the same as one box of ammo ($10). Is that really enough to make buyers go one way or the other? I doubt it.

I know how much it costs us at a dealer level for magazines; for every 3 SIG mags I buy, I can get 5 Glock mags. Those kinds of costs do translate to the retail level. If you're someone who believes in having a lot of mags for each gun that you own, that difference isn't insignificant. This year SIG appears to have bumped up their mag costs from the year before whereas Glock mag prices are still the same as they've been over the past several years. At the retail level we now have almost a $20 price difference between a G19 15rd mag and P320C magazine if I retain the same margins. I don't know how it is for the rest of you but for me that hurts.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
I know that countrywide that gun sales are off their peaks. But dayum, have P320 sales just hit a brick wall or what? We can't GIVE these things away (well, figuratively speaking of course).

Since the start of the holiday season last fall, we ran several P320 specials to try to get some interest in the guns. Barely made a blip. Even the more recent SIG Store credit incentive has pretty much been a bust. I've sold a couple of P226s (the line is also aligned with that SIG Store promo), but our P320s just are gathering dust. Two P320 sales in three weeks...one M17, one 320C...it's just BAD. Meanwhile, we sell every frickin' G20 we can get our hands on, and G19 sales continue on their regular steady pace (though G17 sales are almost as dead as P320 sales).

Okay, sniveling whining over.

How are Walthers,HK and M&Ps selling?

quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
Is that really enough to make buyers go one way or the other? I doubt it.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
I don't know how it is for the rest of you but for me that hurts.

Now multiply the difference by four, because that's what it costs to have a lousy half dozen magazines on hand. The 320 needs time to have the chance to stand comparison to the Glock and get itself a bit better established in the minds of consumers. We're now in a time of relatively slow gun sales, and I wouldn't be surprised if sales are slow even in comparison to the time before the Obama Roller Coaster markets. Everyone may be in the midst of trying to raise prices for both guns and magazines, but, IMHO, boosting the price of SIG mags - or at least 320 mags - recently may have been a marketing mistake.

quote:

How are Walthers,HK and M&Ps selling?

For us M&Ps have also slowed some. The Compacts still do okay but full size guns are loitering in our case. Manual safety guns sales aren't much better than with the "1.0" designs; despite the downsizing of the lever, for ergonomics the stupid safety is still in the wrong location on the frame and people find it hard to ride. A 1911 it ain't. However Shield sales continue to do well despite the P365.

Walthers have been moving okay; in fact I need to order more. Ironically, interest in HK hammer guns have spiked (except in the P2000; I've got one sitting in the case that been here for close to 2 years now), but VP9 sales have slowed appreciably, though the SK variants still garner interest.

P-10C sales have also hit a wall; I've had some fleeting interest in the F and S variants, but not as much as I would expect for "new" guns to market. We're still having trouble getting 75s of any type out of CZ; we have only distributor channels and we HATE going there because of the middleman markup.

FN sales have been painful as well; the 509 variants get fingered f***ed (but account for few actual sales) and we've sold a couple of FNX-45s over these past few months but the FNS and lesser FNXs attract very little interest. The only guns that move regularly are the Five-seveNs, and those frankly are hard for us to come by.

Beretta sales have also slowed but did well before Christmas 2018; honestly slow guns sales this time of year isn't all that surprising. Post holiday blues and all that, so 92 and PX4 sales being what they are right now is not any shock. As far as I'm concerned, Beretta can discontinue the Nano any time they want; I won't shed a tear over that sales slug of a gun.

Hammer SIG sales have been okay. As I posted earlier P226 sales have been fair, the P229 size has done a bit better. 10mm P220s move but the 45AUTO P220s gather dust. P238 and P938 sales really have stunk over the past 6-8 months; I was glad that we finally moved one (938 Extreme) a couple of days ago. That said, Kimber Micro 9 and 380 sales haven't exactly been setting our books afire either.

As for other brands: ironic (for me) that guns from that unspoken company based in Geneseo, Il have been doing okay since before the 2018 holiday season began. Most buyers don't know the sordid backstory and frankly even I don't give a shit anymore when trying to "edumakate" them about it. We've got inventory that needs moving and that's that.

In the same period, 1911 sales have been flat (except Ruger, which I can't figure out why). Canik still does okay but their price advantage has eroded as their prices keep edging up. Probably related to them creating their own U.S. distribution channel and dumping Century Arms in the process (yay!). Revolver sales are still weak overall but GP100 and 686 sales are doing better than I expected. J-frames and now LCRs just continue to sit, though we did sell a number of K6Ss over the holidays.

Ruger poly sales are dead; we've stopped bringing in the American pistols (aside for special ordering, of which there have been NONE), the LC9 lineup looks to have been butchered and mostly discontinued except for the bargain price-point EC9 (a few weeks ago I tried to order in a LC9 Pro just to have for inventory and couldn't find it listed ANYWHERE on distributor databases). The SR pistols continue to languish; I wish our other buyer would JUST STOP ordering these things, but apparently he has a thing for them. I guess. Either that or he gets a kickback from Ruger.

22LR pistol sales have been good; SR22, MkIV and Victory sales have lead the way although the Walther P22 revamp (looks like a CCP/mini PPQ these days) has done well. So has the M&P22 Compact. The Buck Mark however hasn't done as good; must be the bling of the gold trigger (at least that's what one off-put customer who bought a 22/45 instead cited to me). We FINALLY sold our last 87 Target; that's one I'm NEVER ordering in again.

My brain is about fried right now but before I quit I should mention that 734lb gorilla in the room: Glock (notice that it's lost some weight). G19 sales keep moving along, and G26 sales have been okay despite the popularity of the P365, which has become our top-selling handgun by a WIDE margin, BTW. Even though G19 sales are still doing relatively well, it appears that our best selling Glock is now the Gen4 G20. We've always done well with the gun but I DID NOT expect such a rush for the gun over the past 4-6 months. Fall hunting and fishing season always brings in new buyers for the gun, but this past year it seems like there's been a different type of buyer to the model. Conversely interest in the G40 has waned a bit; 'long' has its limits, apparently.

Which brings me to its near polar opposite, the G43. Sales have definitely slowed on Glock's littlest 9mm. Hasn't help is the intro of the G43X and G48, but frankly for us those sales haven't been nearly has good as we thought, though admittedly we were a bit late in getting some in and that likely affected our numbers. We also hear a LOT of hate from customers over the silver slides, but most people continue to like on the slender frames.

But the new 800lb gorilla in our room is definitely the smallest 9mm that we sell, the P365. It dominates EVERYTHING. I just ordered another batch from SIG, mostly the new manual safety model, just because I know that one will outsell the original by a WIDE margin (just like the MS Shield does over its non-safety sibling).

The P365 is indeed the essence of "the game changer". Look what it forced Glock to do if you still need proof of its impact. Not that Glock is known for being an ever-evolving innovator, but when a gun can cause a rival gun company to rock on its heels and get them to REACT TO YOU rather than it being the other way around, then you've done good. And despite the issues and mistakes, the P365 has done it good.

quote:

Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
For us M&Ps have also slowed some. The Compacts still do okay but full size guns are loitering in our case. Manual safety guns sales aren't much better than with the "1.0" designs; despite the downsizing of the lever, for ergonomics the stupid safety is still in the wrong location on the frame and people find it hard to ride. A 1911 it ain't.

The funny part is that it's trivial to remove the manual safety.

The frames and internals for both the safety and non-safety version are identical. The safety version just has the additional safety lever and a detent with spring, all of which are easily removable, whereas the non-safety lever has two additional small plastic frame plugs, which are easily installed.

S&W will send you the frame plugs for free.

I bought my M&P 2.0 Compact with Manual Safety because it was the only version that my Blue Label dealer had in stock at the moment. I then called S&W, waited a week for the plugs to show up in the mail, and did the swap in ~2 minutes at my kitchen table.

Poof. Non-safety M&P 2.0 Compact.


Someone who wants to save a few bucks on a M&P should just lowball a shop that has a Manual Safety M&P lingering on their shelf, and then spend the couple minutes to convert it.