Good Morning,

I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience with installing a Ramm tactical trigger on a p365 legion?

I just purchased the firearm last week and installed the Ramm Tactical trigger. It was a little difficult as everything is new and tight, but I got the job done. When finished, I racked the slide to dry fire, and nothing happens.

The trigger squeezes back, but that's it. I tried adjusting the travel screw in as well as all the way out, but that also does not work. This brings me to issue #2.

Now that the weapon will not dry fire, I am also having issues getting off the slide, probably because the sear is still engaged and I cannot release it through the trigger. I have seen a video where you can raise the FCU slightly by taking off the back pin and trying to insert a flat tool to disengage the sear, but so far I have not had any luck trying that. I need to find a tool that is appropriate for that task.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! As a side note, I have also emailed Ramm Tactical, I am just waiting on a response.

I have not done this but I saw this video a week or so ago.



Ramm Tactical P365 Leverage Trigger Kit Installation

Thank you, I actually saw this video as well and did refer to it when installing my trigger to double and triple check myself. Unfortunately, I followed the instructions and still ended up with my issue.

Interestingly, he scared me for a minute when he talked about the CA trigger and how the pin is smaller etc. I had a lot of trouble installing the trigger pin as it was very tight, so I checked my box and the model is (P365 AXGCA Legion). I live in NC, so I was going to get a little mad if the shop sold me a CA version here in NC. However, it looks to be a non CA version. That model on the sticker is very deceptive. I looked and I have the 17 rd. magazines and the label includes that as part of the factory sticker, so I guess CA does not necessarily mean California. I also checked Sig's website and that is also their model online.

I think the CA refers to the slide compensator.

I have some experience with this kit. To be honest it is a bit of mess. I am assuming since the pretravel is so reduced and doesn't account for tolerance variations between FCUs, the takedown lever isn't rotating far enough to allow you to get the slide off. If this happens to be the case, you will need to hold the takedown lever forward with your right thumb firmly while pulling the slide all the way back with your left, then you may also need to also use your left thumb to push down the slide catch. Using this process should allow you to get the slide back off. Let me know if this works for you. As a side note: a P365 doesn't need the striker dropped or removed to get the slide off unless the takedown safety bar somehow got removed or damaged.

If that turns out to be the case, the reason there was no break was because of too much pre-travel reduction never allowing the trigger to reset as well as locking up the takedown and slide catch. This would also be an indication that the striker safety would be completely bypassed as well which has been my experiences with this trigger.

I assume if you reached out to them for help and you haven't posted again, they may offer to take your gun for troubleshooting and special fitting. Alternatively, you may want to just ask for a refund if you are as concerned as I was when I discussed my findings with a few different gunsmiths.

Hello,
So you were right about what has happened since my last post. Mr. Ramm from Ramm tactical offered to work on the gun and trigger after a few emails back and forth. He has stated he is an authorized Sig distributor and had seen nearly every problem that can happen with the 365. I agreed to pay shipping, he agreed to work on the gun free of charge.

I checked in with him yesterday and he just received the gun Friday. I do not know the status but he expected door to door it would be done and operational within a week.

Can you elaborate a little more on the concerns you were hearing from other gunsmiths? I am actually a little surprised some reviews considered the stock trigger to be sloppy. It did have some travel, but absolutely nothing that was what I would consider unacceptable. I actually think I may have jumped the gun ordering this trigger without trying the gun on the range. I saw good reviews and did the same with my Glock and was extremely happy, so expected the same improvement. I can't compare them to each other just yet, but I really don't think the trigger was all that bad.

Anyhow, I'd be interested to hear about any experiences that may help educate me in the pros or cons. Thanks for your help. I do appreciate your insight and if I still had the gun, I would have loved the opportunity to see if your method did indeed release the slide.

I had initially taken mine to a gunsmith for install. It went full auto in test fire which made the gunsmith look closer into what was going on. It has a set screw on the sear that isn't mentioned in their description or videos. It was either set wrong or walked according to the gunsmith. He said it could possibly be adjusted to get it functioning but that they wouldn't accept liability for it since the striker safety was also bypassed. He showed my how the striker safety was bypassed on a second gun he installed it in. To do this, the back plate was removed and he pushed the striker forward with a punch and could feel the striker sliding past the striker block safety. He said on my gun it was even worse and completely bypassed.

Going through this made me dig in and start doing my own research and talking with other gunsmiths about the findings. I have also done a lot of research and hands on with my p365s to better understand.

Hopefully, you will have a better experience but I think Ramm tactical will need to bite the bullet (pun intended) and do a recall at some point to fix guns with bypassed safeties. I wouldn't be surprised if the sear set screw walking will be something else you start hearing a lot about as these triggers get out there more. The set screw and too much reduced pre-travel combination will either cause failures to reset or burst fire depending on how the screw walks.

Wow is about all I can say! That definitely seems like an issue if that is continuing to occur. I must admit, I have never heard of a set screw on a sear, nor can I think of a need to have one? Of course I am no expert so there may be a legitimate purpose.

So my gun is finishsd and here is a copy and paste of what he stated my issue was:

"The legion has an extra bump in front of the trigger. I had to add some relief to the trigger. I bought a legion and if it is the same, I will need a different part number for the legion triggers. It feels really nice now."

I'm slightly concerned on what he did for that relief, and really hope that doesn't mean the relief came from grinding away at my firearm. I should have this back in 1 to 2 more days, so until then I won't know.

I do wonder why some people had no issues, and then mine would barely go together. I can't imagine there is that much of a difference in each Legion 365. Anyhow, I wanted to give an update to where everything stood as of today. As always, thank you for all your help.

Sounds like the issue was exactly as I had thought. Too much reduced pretravel which also locked up the takedown lever and slide catch. It sounds like he modified his trigger not your gun so you shouldn't need to worry about that aspect.

The process did require custom fitting of the trigger parts for your gun as he stated. He seems to be trying to put everything on the very edge with compromised striker safety which is why some guns might work while others won't. What I've been told by an engineer is that the last thing you want is a gunsmith designing a trigger because they look at it as they always have the gun in hand to make adjustments as opposed to having an approach that accommodates for tolerance variations between guns where each one is slightly different coming off the assembly line. So I think this explains why one gun works and another doesn't. However, the most unfortunate part of this is that even guns that function may still have compromised safety without knowing it. Also on this particular trigger you have a set screw on the sear that can walk and create safety issues not discovered on initial installation only to show up later after the screw walks.

I have found that alot of information out there can be misleading. The Sig Guy has an install video for this kit and he says "he can hear the safety lever rattling when shaking the gun" so he concludes that means the striker safety is functioning correctly. I tried this myself on my gun with striker safety bypassed and could hear the same rattle. It turns out, it is the disconnector not the safety lever that makes the rattling sound he was hearing. I would suspect the gun he did the install on also had a bypassed stiker safety based on the minimal take-up shown.

The right way to test for striker safety function I have found after my experiences would be to remove the back plate and push the striker in with a punch to feel if the striker safety is blocking the striker from moving forward to fire a round when not pulling the trigger. I would recommend that you check this when you get your gun back to see if he set it correctly even with the gun in hand. My suspicion based on his advertising videos are that he is intentionally compromising the striker safety leaving only a minimal amount of possibility that the stiker safety will function since the striker will likely slip past the striker safety when pushing it forward in a check like I described.

Let me know if you end up checking the striker safety function when you get it back. I'd be curious to know.

Good Afternoon,

I'm just following up (a little late) regarding the trigger and my Legion. So first off, I see Mr. Ramm has posted on this thread as well. I can attest to what he has posted on here. There is a slight difference in the 365 over the Legion, but he has made the necessary adjustments for mine to work. Something I personally would not have been able to do confidently on my own.

Also, and probably the most important, the striker safety is working properly in my case when using the recommended method by taking off the back plate and pushing the striker with a punch. Mine is not compromised nor would it go off on its own or full auto. I would be extremely upset if this was the case, but as promised, mine has been fixed and is operating safely.

Mr. Ramm also contacted me to inform me of the tweaks he has made and what is going to be done for future triggers that will ensure these alterations will not be necessary that was done to mine. I was also offered a full refund if I was concerned about the safety or operation of the firearm. After testing it, I am completely satisfied and not worried about any dangers with this trigger. I am only one case, but I can see where the issues arose and I do want to thank Mr. Ramm for taking the time to fix this for me without any cost to me.

So thankfully the worry about the trigger and safety issues is NOT a situation to worry about. If there is any issues, in my experience, Mr. Ramm will make sure to do whatever is necessary to ensure the weapon is functioning safely and you are satisfied.

Thank you again for everyone who attempted to help me fix this, and to Mr. Ramm for stepping up and going above and beyond to make sure I was satisfied and that my gun was working as it was intended. Your customer service has been amazing. I would highly recommend him to anyone considering a modified trigger for your Sig.

quote:

Originally posted by rammtactical:
Just so you all know, the triggers are now made with more relief so there is a bit more pretravel. This makes the safety test pass. If anyone has purchased our trigger they feel is not safe, we will replace the trigger with the new one. If anyone has had a trigger that did not fit for any reason, I will personally work on your fcu. I have sold many triggers and there are some that have a stack up of tolerances which may cause issues. I will make good on every Trigger. The set screw on the sear has red loctite and should not move or drift. I am currently working on a sear that does not require the set screw. 2.0 if you will. Out of all the issues I've only had 1 person call me. I fixed their Sig right away. I'm not too arrogant to say if I've made a mistake. The notion line is I want to make a Sig trigger that works with the tolerance stacking. My offer stands to fix, replace or even refund anyone who still has issues with their Sig. I want safety more than anyone and have made changes to the trigger and will be making changes to the sear. My phone number is 714-402-3980 if anyone wants to call and report issues. I signed on to this forum to make it right.
Karl Ramm

Karl,

I appreciate that you have entered the conversation to acknowledge that changes are being made to address safety issues.

I do still have a couple of concerns with what you stated and I suspect we already have a history of interaction in the review section for your product on Optics Planet. As soon as I posted my review titled "unsafe design" which identified the two design flaws discussed and my experience which I've also shared a bit of here, it was reported which took down my review and was followed up with a 5 star review which was a rebuttal to my review which I in turn reported. I have since watched as other negative reviews have popped up for a day or so then are taken down and replaced with a new 5 star review also rebutting that negative review. I have also been reporting those as likely written by you or someone close to your company writing them. At this moment on optics planet, there's what I can only assume to be a fake 5 star review from a "gear expert" which isn't reportable and there is however one new negative review that has been allowed to stand probably because it doesn't mention anything about possible safety concerns. First off, I was offended that my review that I took time to write was taken down but more importantly this calls into question the integrity and transparency when it comes to safety.

My second concern is that you stated "The set screw on the sear has red loctite and should not move or drift." On mine this definitely was not the case. I went to see if the set screw had any signs of loctite and none are visible on the threads. The sear set screw adjusted easily with the provided hex key. If it did indeed have red loctite, it would have required a flame or torch to break the bond before it would be able to be turned so easily with such a small hex key. This was one of the first things I checked after I got feedback from the installing gunsmith that the sear set screw either was set wrong or walked.

I have since evaluated these parts extensively myself after the feedback from the gunsmith and consulted with others. I am a System Safety Engineer by trade which entails doing failure investigations and fault analysis. Your trigger has inspired me to dig in very deep and I have applied the about same level of rigor to this that I do on a full fault tree analysis and failure investigation. I actually have felt a bit more fulfilled doing this analysis than what I typically have to deal with in my career which is why I popped on here to help out and share my findings. I'm glad that my efforts have seemed to bring awareness to potential safety concerns and that actions are being taken. I will keep my trigger purchased on my bookshelf in my office along with other failed items I've kept as souvenirs from other failure investigations in my career. In the end I do feel good knowing I can bring awareness to others and hold someone accountable to my findings in an open forum like this.

Shaun8512,

You might want to double check the striker safety. One of the things I saw in an Optics Planet review I reported was that the striker safety is to be checked with the backplate remove and striker cocked which is NOT correct and won't tell you anything other than the sear is holding back the striker. The trigger needs to be pulled first to get the striker past the sear, then after the striker is past the sear, release the trigger and verify that the striker is being blocked from moving forward by pressing it forward with a punch. If the striker safety is functioning correctly, the striker will move forward again when pulling the trigger to defeat the striker safety.

You may also want to see if there is in fact red loctite on your sear or not. I would like to assume that Karl wouldn't be misleading you but I myself wouldn't be as trusting given what I have analyzed so far. Again, I'd be very curious to hear your findings if you do investigate further.

When designing a shorter throw on a trigger, it is a concern that if the safety plunger is being depressed, it will not be safe if dropped. I have taken great lengths to test the limits on where this danger point is. The triggers that were machined were appearently Machined a bit on the heavy side which caused the unsafe touching of the safety lever to the plunger. I made changes to the design, recalled the triggers from optics Planet and fixed the issue. If you send me the trigger that you seem are saving as a trophy, I will fix it to show you the changes made. If there was no red loctite on the screw, that somehow got past inspection. I want to fix your trigger so you can do a second test to see that the triggers are now safe and affective. Would you say fair to let me make the changes to the trigger you have? Since my triggers for other models are safe first, and it being very important to me to have a great marketable, but safe trigger, I would like to see if you would agree to me updating your trigger to the new changes.

I’d send it back and get the Mcarbo or gray guns trigger. Both of those won’t make your gun a liability and they both give a great trigger compared to how it comes stock. I prefer the mcarbo myself

You aren't helping. I am asking concealcarry to send back the trigger so he can see the changes made.

Karl,

You won't win me over by fixing the trigger I have. After going through this I am more than capable of removing material from the trigger and setting the sear set screw at a safe position with red loctite to bring it into operating margins but this would only fix the problem for my particular gun not anyone else's. If you haven't picked up on it yet, I am still concerned with the integrity of the changes you are making going forward which is why I think it is important to be transparent about who might be affected and options.

I wish you no ill will and wish you the best in trying to get these issues worked out. I may purchase another one of these triggers from a distributor at some point down the road to give you the opportunity to win my endorsement of your revisions. My suspicion is that it may be a bit harder than you think to make these work consistently across different guns.

It isn't fair from my perspective to market something as drop-in and "no fuss, no muss" when there can be a portion of your customers that experience safety critical issues even if it be a smaller number.

So you are basically nothing more than a self amusing critic who wants to make noise. I hope you enjoy your expensive, but sadly worthless piece of metal on your trophy shelf.

It may be worth quite a bit in a class action lawsuit I suppose. I can just hold on to it like bitcoin or a baseball card, might be worth something someday.

What a piece of work.

Most people respond to real recall notices. The fictional ones are harder to respond to.

Wish me no ill? Hmm. What part of class action suit would that be?