quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:
I attended some pistol training for my part time police job last week. It wasn’t a red dot transition class “per se” but was geared towards bringing some new officers up to snuff with pistols equipped with red dots. Like most, I don’t like to admit that I was wrong, but I was wrong.

Six years ago, I didn't use dots. In 2021 I had two Trijicon RMR's on a Gen5 Glock 19, and a Glock 45. That same year I took two one day pistol mounted optics classes locally in North Texas.

Training is the issue, as you pointed out. TOO many "experts" treat these things like it's a scope, watch a couple of YouTube videos, and think they can mount them, sight them in, and go to work. They are not "plug and play." But I get it, gun people are good to go spending hundreds of dollars on gadgets, but ask them to invest that same cash in training, and a lot are coughing up furballs.

For me, its dots all the way going forward. My soon to be 59 year old eyes, (formerly at 20/15 vision 15+ years ago), and my solid marksmanship, appreciate the tech.

I check the setting when I holster it and adjust, if needed. The footprint limited my # of choices, and I wasn't interested in Holosuns.

My plan going forward will be that something I plan on carrying concealed will almost certainly get a closed emitter. Something that would be carried more “duty” style or something that might be used for competition etc, would be more open to using an open emitter. I really really like the RMR HD optic on a buddy’s SIG 211. It’s almost Eotech like dot in the circle is definitely easier for me to pick up in a hurry. I’m thinking my Staccato P will get an RMR HD.

I’m probably going to have to bite the bullet and just try a Holosun and an Osight. I HATE supporting Chinese companies, hate it. I especially hate supporting Chinese companies that seem to be blatantly copying other products. BUT Holosun seems to be moving in the direction of having their own innovations so I suppose that’s a plus. One thing that I believe will be a requirement for me is that battery removal MUST be able to be accomplished without removing the optic.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question for those that run a red dot. Do you adjust the brightness depending on the lighting conditions?
Do you turn it down at night and crank it back up during the day or does your dot have the perfect setting that can handle every situation? Also, have you ever turned up the brightness to a higher setting during bright days and forgot to turn it back down or just the opposite resulting in a dot that's too dim to see during the day? The reason I ask is this can be a common issue when red dot pistols are issued to the masses. It also happens to experienced shooters. The runtimes plummet when left on higher than recommended settings.

I just leave mine bright. I'd rather have a big bright glare in the dark than risk not being able to see it at all in the daylight. It's very rare to be working in true pitch-black darkness, so even if you don't have a light, focusing on the target and bringing the big blotchy glare over it should enable you to make hits. And if you do have a bright handheld or weapon light available, when you turn it on it'll wash out a dim dot just like the sun would.

I wouldn't want an overly-bright blown-our dot for shooting bullseye, but for the vast majority of defensive scenarios it works just fine.

We just did some low light training last week, and I came away from it realizing how much I really love the optic in low or adverse lighting situations. It's so much easier to acquire and align in poor light than irons. Honestly, if I had to pick between a flashlight and an optic, I'd take the optic (although I'm grateful I don't have to...much better to have both).

quote:

Originally posted by Lt CHEG:

I’m probably going to have to bite the bullet and just try a Holosun and an Osight. I HATE supporting Chinese companies, hate it. I especially hate supporting Chinese companies that seem to be blatantly copying other products. BUT Holosun seems to be moving in the direction of having their own innovations so I suppose that’s a plus. One thing that I believe will be a requirement for me is that battery removal MUST be able to be accomplished without removing the optic.

I cannot recommend the EPS/EPS carry enough. I just shot a pistol class a few weeks ago, and the EPS family probably sat atop 60-70% of the class. I own one of each at this point and for my money, it's the optic to beat.

I can appreciate wanting to be patriotic, but if it's between an RMR HD or an EPS, I'm going EPS. Trust me when I tell you, it aint just the money. I have a few LPVOs that arent exactly cheap.

My older eyes led me to optics. It has been a learning curve to be sure, but I am finally making headway. Still working quickly acquiring the dot for fast shots.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeGLI:

I can appreciate wanting to be patriotic, but if it's between an RMR HD or an EPS, I'm going EPS. Trust me when I tell you, it aint just the money. I have a few LPVOs that arent exactly cheap.

I’m discovering that Holosun is really starting to differentiate themselves. If the Holosun was just an exact copy of a Trijicon for example, but was half the cost, I would still pay double for the Trijicon that is made in the USA over a copy made in China. However, I’m seeing more and more features that are only available on Holosun, and if you want those features you have to buy the Holosun. That’s tough to swallow but nevertheless seems true. Maybe we can get Trijicon or Primary Arms or even Aimpoint to exactly duplicate some of the Holosun optics so that I can support an American company instead of the CCP? Turnabout is fair play and all right?

Sure, if you wanna pay $1000 for a Holosun rip off I suppose....

I have 4 Holosun optics. Wish I had more options for western optics in this class to be honest. That said all 4 are fairly different and all 4 have been great.

-407K 6 MOA dot - Simple, small, great dot, inexpensive and fairly robust and proven. No complaints.

-507C with the ACSS reticle - The ACSS is a great option for when you need to shoot from weird positions. It can be training wheels for a new dot shooter but also provide some real world benefits. I do have it turned off for now however but it does indeed work as advertised. Green delta reticle works well for me as well.

-2x SCS dots - These have been fantastic for me. Give them a little light now and then and thats pretty much it for keeping them up and running. They sit super low have a great auto brightness and an easy button to go super bright when needed. I was really wary when I bought my first of these but I have been completely satisfied with them.

Now none of my gear gets abused. I don't torture test, nor am I assaulting building after blowing a hole in a wall so grain of salt as far as my opinions. My holosuns have, however, held up to all the lint, bumps, cleaning products and shooting I have thrown at them so they are good enough for an assault in the Asian foods isle of the grocery store.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question for those that run a red dot. Do you adjust the brightness depending on the lighting conditions?
.

I’ve been shooting RMR equipped guns for about 10 years. I tend to stick with the manual adjustment models. What I normally do is stand somewhere in the house with good lighting. Next to a dark room. I adjust the optic to where I want it, step into the dark room and switch the white light on. I adjust the brightness up or down until I find a happy median. I then double check in bright sunlight.

Now back to the “my optic can beat up your optic” thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:
I have a question for those that run a red dot. Do you adjust the brightness depending on the lighting conditions?
Do you turn it down at night and crank it back up during the day or does your dot have the perfect setting that can handle every situation?

I don’t. I turn off any auto brightness feature but leave the shake awake and auto shut off features on. I crank the dot up to the setting required to use it in the brightest times of the day and leave it there. Too bright (if in a low light situation) doesn’t bother me and if I click on my flashlight the dot doesn’t wash out.
I guess it could potentially run my battery down sooner, but I don’t give a single shit about battery life. Changing a $3 battery once or twice a year is a fair trade for the benefits I get from the optic.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I’ve been shooting RMR equipped guns for about 10 years.

ELITIST!

quote:

Now back to the “my optic can beat up your optic” thing.

Yeah, the meat and potatoes of the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
My older eyes led me to optics. It has been a learning curve to be sure, but I am finally making headway. Still working quickly acquiring the dot for fast shots.

What worked for me was changing my mindset. Inability to find the dot forced me to realize my presentation needed refining.
Fixed the presentation through dry reps and it isn’t possible for me to NOT find the dot fast.
I’m old, so I’m not that fast. At 7 yards I can A zone a shot from concealment in 1.05 to 1.15. Best I could manage with irons was 1.40.

During a sting of fire I accept the dot will be in constant motion, but getting the grip right makes the dot drop back where I want it every time.
Returning to irons, I’m even better than I was.
Struggling with a dot is a blessing rather than a curse if your goal is to be a consistently better shooter. Keep working it!

quote:

Originally posted by Pete K:
What worked for me was changing my mindset. Inability to find the dot forced me to realize my presentation needed refining.
Fixed the presentation through dry reps and it isn’t possible for me to NOT find the dot fast.

I've found that pretty much everyone I've encountered who struggles with finding the dot does so because their fundamentals are sloppy. A little work on grip and presentation, plus some deliberate "window framing" with the optic window at the start to get them used to focusing on the target and bringing the optic into their sight line, and suddenly the dot just magically appears every time.

Dry fire/dry drawing/presentation from low ready, target focus, and sticking with a singular platform (same grip angle). It doesnt take a TON of time per session, but you gotta get the reps in.

Just my 2¢, which is the going rate for random opinions ...

For concealed carry they're still too bulky, IMO. Open carry is a different story.

For distance accuracy, they win hands down.

"Acquiring the sight" can be a problem with iron sights too, especially when shooting at a distance.

quote:

Originally posted by toivo:

For concealed carry they're still too bulky, IMO.

While that may be true for earlier bulkier sights, especially since they also required taller/bulkier iron sights to cowitness, have you seen the latest compact red dots?

They cowitness with factory height sights and are roughly 1"x1"x1.5". Plus, part of those dimensions sit below the level of the slide thanks to the recessed optic cut.

I'm not sure how something that's barely more than 1 cubic inch can still reasonably be considered "too bulky".

Besides, the minimal added bulk is on the top of the slide, an area that typically doesn't print when carrying concealed anyway. It's not like it's adding bulk to the base of the grip, or the muzzle, or even the rear of the slide.

quote:

For concealed carry they're still too bulky, IMO. Open carry is a different story.

I've been CCing a pistol with an optic for about 4 years now. First a P320, then a P229, and finally the current 43x. I've carried all three of those guns without the optic as well, and I don't find that the optic makes the gun measurably more difficult to conceal.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

For concealed carry they're still too bulky, IMO. Open carry is a different story.

I've been CCing a pistol with an optic for about 4 years now. First a P320, then a P229, and finally the current 43x. I've carried all three of those guns without the optic as well, and I don't find that the optic makes the gun measurably more difficult to conceal.

Fair enough -- My post had an "IMO" in it, and I should have stated that I'm almost exclusively a pocket-carry person. P365 is the upper limit of what I'll carry, and an optic would make it unpocketable.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete K:
What worked for me was changing my mindset. Inability to find the dot forced me to realize my presentation needed refining. [snipped]

When I first tried out an optic on my xdm-elite I had a heck of a time finding the dot quickly. So I can definitely see how some may try a red dot at the range and decide rather quickly that they don't want/need this 'new fangled technology'. It took me a week to get to the range with the dot installed but by that time I'd done some many dry fire drills that my presentation was good enough that 9/10 times the dot was perfectly centered instantly when I'd draw. I've also noticed, that getting much better with a quick presentation with the red dot it's helped a lot when using irons. Kind of reminds me of the video I saw of Jerry Miculek where he was blindfolded and drew from a holster and put a full mag on target at 7 yards, he's not-human but it shows the kind of things that can happen with repetition. I fully believe I shoot better due to using a red dot on two of my pistols, with my eyes on target it just feels like I'm now naturally bringing pistols on target without feeling like I'm having to move them around when I'm drawing.

I ended up getting an optics ready slide for my m&p compact that's my every day carry (and another Holosun 507c) and it's been going great through around 700 rounds now.

I can see how enclosed would be much better long term, but even with daily carry I've never really felt the need to do more than a quick wipe with my shirt in the morning when I'm putting it on, and the largest issue I've seen is a cat hair one morning.

For the brightness, I keep it on manual and I have a tiny gap between the bottom of the blinds and window ledge in my bathroom window, I check the brightness through that small gap (sun is hitting that window directly in the mornings). I have the dot where it's just bright enough in direct sunlight, and it's not TOO bright in a darker room but I do get some starbursting in low light with it set bright. I'm fine with the tradeoff, bright enough for outdoors but some starburst effect when I'm in a darker room. If I'm going out later in the day and I've disarmed and it's getting dark, I may knock the brightness down by 1-2 at the most since I religiously check it every time I put my holster on. That works for me, when I had it on auto brightness it just annoyed me a bit when it would shift on me if I was in a dark area but the target was brightly lit.

And last thing I just thought of, one thing I've noticed since using a red dot is that you WILL usually see any mistakes you're making before you even get a chance to see the point of impact on the target. You will see how bad you're flinching/jerking the trigger immediately.

I'm not currently planning to migrate any other pistols to a dot, but if I was to go with another carry pistol or range toy I'd likely be going into it with plans to mount an optic on it, with a carry pistol I would for sure unless I was going for a pocket carry option.