Interesting posts on another thread about custom guns. So as no to hi jack it I thought it might be interesting to get views on custom guns. Some thought a Wilson Combat 320 is just a parts gun made pretty. But in reality is that what most custom guns are? Does a 5000 dollar gun make it anything else? My opinion is pride of ownership tops all else as a good factory gun shoots as well as most of us can do.(trigger aside). All views welcome.

Yes, there's a big difference between cosmetic changes, and a real custom gun. A big difference. The Wilson P320 is cosmetic with a few aftermarket parts attached.

The Wilson P320 is "custom" in roughly the same way that Kimber tries to make 1911's look "custom." They're not.

I have some Wilson pistols that are hand built and fitted, right, accurate, and very well put together, dedicated pistols that aren't stock with a few bits thrown in. Big difference. I have custom CZ's that are decidedly not factory pistols, and are not simply cosmetic. Same for various revolvers and semi-auto pilols that aren't drop-in parts with a cosmetic slide treatment and finish.

Putting drop-in parts in a pistol and adding cosmetic touches doesn't make it a "custom" pistol, even if the price is jacked up to make it look that way.

Nothing against Wilsons P320; if people like it and want to pay it, that's fine. Wilson does make some good handguns, and there's nothing wrong with their P320, but I was quite disappointed when I got my hands on one to find out that it was nothing more than cosmetics with drop-in parts.

To my mind, custom means customized, meaning changed. (to me)
You may make the highest quality parts and can assemble them into the highest quality gun, but it's not custom. it's the gun you make. The exception to that would be the truly bespoke firearm, made to my exact specifications. (so it's not the same as your regular standard item)


There's the other wrinkle, in my mind and to most people's, the "custom" scale slides on who does the work. You or I may do the work to an equal skill level as the biggest name smith, but no one will care.

No one is discussing the P320 MODULAR gun as it should be. Yes I had Wilson 1911's back decades ago and they were great hand fitted hand built guns.

But the Sig 320 is MODULAR. Custom no longer applies in the same way it did decades ago, that's for 1911's, the 320's aren't 1911's.

No Mfg's are building custom Sig FCU's ( that I know of) some make drop in triggers and that's just about it. Sig builds a 320 x-legion that does very well in comp. It has a few upgrades but it's no full blown custom, yet it's more than competitive in the shooting sports.

When defining custom 320's it's about custom slides, custom grips, custom barrels, comps. all of which are drop ins. Theres not a need for the so called custom p320 gun, built by gunsmiths, you can build one yourself and have a creditable gun for comp, all the parts are available to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
Yes, there's a big difference between cosmetic changes, and a real custom gun. A big difference. The Wilson P320 is cosmetic with a few aftermarket parts attached.

The Wilson P320 is "custom" in roughly the same way that Kimber tries to make 1911's look "custom." They're not.

I have some Wilson pistols that are hand built and fitted, right, accurate, and very well put together, dedicated pistols that aren't stock with a few bits thrown in. Big difference. I have custom CZ's that are decidedly not factory pistols, and are not simply cosmetic. Same for various revolvers and semi-auto pilols that aren't drop-in parts with a cosmetic slide treatment and finish.

Putting drop-in parts in a pistol and adding cosmetic touches doesn't make it a "custom" pistol, even if the price is jacked up to make it look that way.

Nothing against Wilsons P320; if people like it and want to pay it, that's fine. Wilson does make some good handguns, and there's nothing wrong with their P320, but I was quite disappointed when I got my hands on one to find out that it was nothing more than cosmetics with drop-in parts.

So what's a custom P320. The FCU IS THE GUN. There's no need to do a so called custom build to the FCU. It is designed to work just as it is. The gunsmiths didn't re-design the 1911, they simply took the parts and massaged them or made some forged parts. There's lots of differing ideas about the 320 but it's simply modular and it's designed to be just that, get some parts and put them in.

My $2000 H&K Mark 23 shoots far better than the old fool behind it! And that's just a production gun. Best trigger and accuracy I have ever owned.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a gunsmith and I think a definitive answer would be a specific look at a specific pistol.

For purposes of general discussion, I've owned a handful of most of Wilson's, Nighthawks, Les Baer and Ed Brown's. For purposes of discussion, Wilson's were mentioned, I'll stick to those.

Back in the day, Kimber made Wilson's slides and frames. Allegedly, they were produced as a separate run to tighter tolerances.

Early Kimber Gold Match pistols had some hand fitting and no MIM parts.

I once owned an early single digit Kimber and a Wilson that was about a year newer. Both shot better than I could shoot. Perhaps a gun smith could spot some differences in quality. I couldn't.

Kimber's have gone through phases of MIM parts and quality control issues as all production guns do. They manufactured their own MIM parts, had some problems, and their marketing dept., a big success by any measure lost their top guy to Sig.

Wilson has upgraded their parts to what is termed "bullet proof," and markets this as a feature with a benefit. I've yet to hear a definition of "bullet proof," that makes me believe it to be what its touted to be.

Like Kimber he lost one of his top managers who started Nighthawk. His sons now run the day-to- day business. They have expanded their product line more than Kimber and something like Sig.

They do hand fit their parts. They don't make all of their parts and all the semi custom shops outsource. They hand fit but don't hard fit barrels (I was told) like Les Baer. Dan Wesson uses an air gage. I don't know what Wilson uses but some of their guns are guaranteed to shoot an in. at 25 yds.

Sig 1911's and other Sigs will often shoot 2" at 25 yds. while the X5's are thought to be more accurate than that.

Most, if they thought about it, might agree that one gun run can vary from run to run and all companies including semi custom gun companies experience more quality control problems when they expand product lines.

So, when you purchase a Wilson, you pay up for alleged superior parts, a hand fit, but not hard fit barrel, and that the hand fitting that compensated for any production problems in the manufacturing of slides, frames, and parts. However, they have quality control problems just like any gun company. You read less about them, but they have them.

I don't think either Kimber or Wilson would guarantee that their fancier guns are more accurate than their base guns and I don't think Wilson guns are always more accurate than Kimbers in either the hands of ave. shooters or in gun tests.

I think both production guns and semi custom guns have seeming improvements that are mostly cosmetic, and often the labels production and semi custom are a distinction with often a marginal difference except for price.

Pride of ownership is someone who wants their gun to be special.

Walter dude that post is spot on.
Views welcome members just please keep it non personal. I don’t wear panties..lol

Or does it appear that you think it necessary to pay up for hand fit panties-unless the right woman did the hand fitting, hence a real noticeable up-grade.

Thinking that a custom gun would be more like an SVI or a Stan Chen.

Semi-custom would have a model number or name like Perfect 10 etc...

I didn't get to order any quantity of custom features or trigger inserts, but the 10 was perfect for me.

I have many semi-custom guns from 1911s built by Wilson and a few Ed Browns that I paid handsomely to have some non-cataloged options done which took some major convincing. The machine work from both are extraordinary. I have pistols from Sig’s Mastershop that include an early X6. All of those are every bit as good as a true custom built pistol in terms of accuracy, reliability, or dependability. When it comes to a true commissioned one of a kind hand built gun from a top gunsmith you get a true piece of art. The pride and exclusivity is what you’re paying to own. It doesn’t do anything any better than you can get from a semi-custom shop, but that’s not what it was about in the first place. The only thing keeping me from commissioning a true one of a kind pistol is the 5+ year wait from the gunsmiths I’m interested in hiring.

As to the P320 or “Gucci” Glocks it’s about building it the way I want it not how someone else envisioned. I’ve built several variations from the ground up and it really wasn’t cost effective. They are set up how I want them, I’ve been sending plenty of lead down range with them, and I am extremely happy with the results. In the end, I really am just out to satisfy me when it comes what I choose to own.

What would be your top choices that you'd be "interested in hiring," to build a true custom gun?

Liked your post. Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by Walther Dude:
What would be your top choices that you'd be "interested in hiring," to build a true custom gun?

Liked your post. Well said.

Full-house, bespoke guns:

Jason Burton
Stan Chen
Chuck Rogers
Ned Christiansen
Ted Yost

These are guys that are going to build you a gun by themselves. I would also love to have a gun built by Larry Vickers or Hilton Yam. Same with some of the classics like Armand Swenson and Jim Clark.

There are a decent number of other builders out there that don't have the notoriety today, but probably will in coming years. Commonly they are more regionally known.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

Full-house, bespoke guns:

Jason Burton
Stan Chen
Chuck Rogers
Ned Christiansen
Ted Yost

That. Custom means built to customer's specifications, outside of what's otherwise available on the market.
I owned two guns by one dude from the list above, still own one. Neither has a second copy thereof in the world. That's my idea of custom.

quote:

Full-house, bespoke guns:

Jason Burton
Stan Chen
Chuck Rogers
Ned Christiansen
Ted Yost

All of the above are on my list, one I hadn’t thought of until I just saw his name. Jason Burton would be at the top. I’m also partial to the work of Don Williams.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:

Full-house, bespoke guns:

Jason Burton
Stan Chen
Chuck Rogers
Ned Christiansen
Ted Yost

These are guys that are going to build you a gun by themselves. I would also love to have a gun built by Larry Vickers or Hilton Yam. Same with some of the classics like Armand Swenson and Jim Clark.

There are a decent number of other builders out there that don't have the notoriety today, but probably will in coming years. Commonly they are more regionally known.

I would add Jeremy Reid, Lou Biondo, and Brandan Bunker to that list. I also like Luke Volkmann's work at a little more affordable pricing :-).

I have been an admirer of Luke Volkmann’s work since he left Ed Brown. I would be honored to have something built by him and will likely remedy the fact that I don’t.

I still honestly can’t get the idea of an Heirloom Precision masterpiece built by Jason out of my head. Likely make it a pair of I pull the trigger.

Well, it will be a while before you can get on Jason's wait list and his guns don't show up on the used market very often. Get a Volkmann and enjoy it while you wait :-)

Owning a custom gun is one of those special experiences you do for the pure love of it.
Perhaps others have mentioned this before, but
browsing the "Louder than Words" website (ltwguns.com) is a phenomenally educational experience; for on this website we see many of the finest custom gunsmith's work in process, and get to learn a little bit about how these brilliant and talented gentlemen think - and why their work is closer to functional art than to mere machinery.
Visiting this website and seeing the work of Ned Christiansen, Jason Burton, Karl Beining, John Harrison, Chuck Rogers, and others - is a pure delight for those of us who remember the days (albeit 50 years ago) when Colt's Custom Shop was something special.

All good adds. There are a number of talented guys out there. A lot of them are starting to age some and that concerns me. They are almost certainly not being replaced in equal numbers.