quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:


"Internal documents from Immigration Customs Enforcement provide that unintended discharges skyrocketed when it switched its primary weapon from a Glock to the P320, with the P320 accounting for a nearly 500% increase in unintended discharges."

Not surprised at the 500% increase.

All of a sudden ICE agents got careless because Sig says it the most tested, safest sidearms known in the history of mankind. Yea, that's logical.

Do you have an explanation for why that happened? Answering that question is where the logic, reasoning, and critical thinking come in.

Start with this I posted on the bottom of the previous page:

“The Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm was introduced to the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department in 2013. The following year, accidental discharges in the field shot up by more than 500%”

There was a 53 page report written about it.

Not sure what the MP in LA has to do with the ICE report on the P320 vs the Glock.

Going from a DA/SA gun to a striker fired handguns probably had something to do it huh? Critical thinking.

Are MP's still going off in LA?

Illogical response.

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:
^^ Probably, BUT...Regarding the original 'Drop Safe' issue, it my understanding (I've heard this from multiple sources, including from someone in Engineering/Development at SIG) that the original P320 design was evaluated (and passed) all industry standard testing protocols that existed at the time. The 'Drop Safe' issue that was revealed, occurred at a unique and specific angle that was outside of (between?) the testing protocol that was used by all firearms manufacturers. NOBODY was testing/drop testing Pistols at the angle where the issue occurred. Just sayin'

The way I understand it is that P320 passed SAAMI drop safe testing initially.
Then during MHS the pistol did not pass the Army's more stringent drop safe testing.
The pistol was then revised to meet the Army's specifications.

New production P320 based pistols were then produced with the upgrades.
SIG instituted a Voluntary Upgrade Program for early production pistols.

SIG has been criticized for not instituting a Mandatory Recall.

^^ Basically, but not exactly, as there's a little more to it. Yes, the P320 passed all the industry standard (SAAMI) drop safe testing, but the M17 MHS contract was awarded to SIG prior to the 'more stringent' drop safe testing when the issues were discovered. The contract was awarded to SIG on January 18, 2017, and the Army initiated the PVT (Performance Verification Testing) in April 2017. It was during the PVT that the M17 failed the drop safe testing, which did not occur until after the contract was awarded, and the results of the PVT were not reported by the Army until January 2018. SIG created an ECP (Engineering Change Proposal) to the M17 design to mitigate the issue, which was approved and implemented, and the M17 passed the subsequent drop testing, validating the design change of the ECP.

Ultimately, SIG began shipping M17's to the 101st Airborne in November 2017, and all of the M17 Pistols that were delivered to the US Military had the ECP 'upgrade' already baked in to the design.

On the commercial side, SIG implemented the 'Voluntary Upgrade' Program on August 8, 2017 and all P320 Pistols manufactured on, or after that date, had the upgrades.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nhracecraft,

OP Jupiter

I understand the frustration folks have with many of the YouTube videos. Many are complete BS. Unfortunately for Sig, those YouTube videos are not what landed Sig in hot water with the P320. It's the dozens and dozens of documented incidents with the P320 that far exceed all the other service pistols combined. If reason, logic and critical thinking is important, this can't be dismissed.[/QUOTE]
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Just doing a Google search: Glock 19, from 1988 to 1998 Washington Metropolitan Police department had 120 accidental discharges with their Glock 19's. That is only one department.

The Sig is around 100 AD'S. Hard to say the P320 far exceed all other service pistols combined.

Not at all saying there is not a problem with the P320 but there are other firearms that discharged accidentally out there.

quote:

Originally posted by rtquig:

Just doing a Google search: Glock 19, from 1988 to 1998 Washington Metropolitan Police department had 120 accidental discharges with their Glock 19's. That is only one department.

The Sig is around 100 AD'S. Hard to say the P320 far exceed all other service pistols combined.

Not at all saying there is not a problem with the P320 but there are other firearms that discharged accidentally out there.

We are talking about pistols having un-commanded discharges in a holster. I hope you know the difference between Glock/Sig/M&P leg and what is going on with the P320.

quote:

Originally posted by Jupiter:

quote:

Originally posted by rtquig:
OP Jupiter

I understand the frustration folks have with many of the YouTube videos. Many are complete BS. Unfortunately for Sig, those YouTube videos are not what landed Sig in hot water with the P320. It's the dozens and dozens of documented incidents with the P320 that far exceed all the other service pistols combined. If reason, logic and critical thinking is important, this can't be dismissed.

‐‐----‐-------------------------------------------



Just doing a Google search: Glock 19, from 1988 to 1998 Washington Metropolitan Police department had 120 accidental discharges with their Glock 19's. That is only one department.

The Sig is around 100 AD'S. Hard to say the P320 far exceed all other service pistols combined.

Not at all saying there is not a problem with the P320 but there are other firearms that discharged accidentally out there.

We are talking about pistols un-commanded discharging in a holster. I hope you know the difference between Glock/Sig/M&P leg and what is going on with the P320.[/QUOTE]



As an owner of a P320 I have followed this thread since day one.
Why so snippy with your response?
I own Glocks, Sigs, and S&W.

quote:

Originally posted by rtquig:

As an owner of a P320 I have followed this thread since day one.
Why so snippy with your response?
I own Glocks, Sigs, and S&W.

Sorry if it came across that way, rtquig.

There was a large increase in ADs when departments switched to striker fired pistols. Those usually involved a trigger finger. It was called "Glock Leg".

Gentlemen, real estate. Look at all the space on the page being used by these endless quotes.

Economy. Respond in full, but minimize the quotes.

If you don't know how to edit quotes, please ask. It's simple.

Y'know, if you're responding to someone just one or two posts above you, there's no need to quote at all. Anyone following the conversation will be able to determine who you're addressing.

Look at this thread, guys. Imagine someone trying to read through its entirety.

Economy. Real estate.

Jupiter, it's all good.
Like everyone, it would be nice to have a solid answer to the problem. I'm 50/50 as to if there is a problem. Even having a safety on my 320, I won't CC with mine.

^^^^^
Thanks for reminding me to be a little more courteous with my responses.

As I stated in an earlier post I carry a P320 (X5 DH3) on duty. I've dropped it both unholstered and holstered and never an issue. I am aware of the lack of a trigger "dongle" and treat the gun accordingly to avoid an AD. I just came back from rifle quals and was told that starting next month we are all being issued new Glock 45's with the COA red dot sight. I was told I will be one of the first (we have almost 2000 sworn I believe) as they want all the Sigs off the streets ASAP.

If I can ask a stupid question, original GI style 1911s without a series 80 safety or Schwartz safety will fire if dropped an impacted in a certain way.

This is a known thing that doesn't really affect 1911 use and ownership.

Is this different because it doesn't NEED to be dropped you think? Seems pretty straightforward of an answer but wasn't the initial recall on P320s because they could fire if dropped?

Maybe its because 1911's have multiple safeties I suppose.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
Is this different because it doesn't NEED to be dropped you think? Seems pretty straightforward of an answer but wasn't the initial recall on P320s because they could fire if dropped?

The original recall was about the P320 falling at a certain angle, the trigger could activate due to the momentum and weight of the trigger shoe. There was some modification to the FCU and the trigger shoe was hollowed out to remove weight.

quote:

Originally posted by OttoSig:
If I can ask a stupid question, original GI style 1911s without a series 80 safety or Schwartz safety will fire if dropped an impacted in a certain way.

This is a known thing that doesn't really affect 1911 use and ownership.

Is this different because it doesn't NEED to be dropped you think? Seems pretty straightforward of an answer but wasn't the initial recall on P320s because they could fire if dropped?

Maybe its because 1911's have multiple safeties I suppose.

I don't see much in common between P320 and 1911.

P320 the pistol and the P320 saga is different in many ways.
First we have the Internet with ideas, accusations and theories all moving around at the speed of light.
SIG is in a bit of a hole with P320 :

1) Some just plain do not like Ron Cohen, SIG CEO
2) Some harbor resentment towards SIG for being awarded the MHS
3) SIG has been criticized for their handling of the drop safe issue in 2017
4) Some believe that a P320 will spontaneously fire, untouched
5) Some believe that a P320 will fire without a trigger press when torque is applied to the pistol

So that's the hole that SIG needs to climb out of (I may have missed an item or two)
The drop safe issue was solved 8 years ago, but it still comes up in these threads.

Some believe it is a poor design.
Yep, that simple.

Interesting.
"The overall design is simply not safe", is the winning argument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqO1TG_eMPc

Just curious- have any of the youtubers eaten any crow publicly over the false story of how the Airman was shot?

quote:

The original recall was about the P320 falling at a certain angle, the trigger could activate due to the momentum and weight of the trigger shoe.

I had that done on mine as soon as I heard about it. It's not farfetched that in a hand-to-hand struggle for the gun, it could be d knocked or pried out of a hand and go flying or be dropped and hit the ground at such an angle. That of course is a different issue than the alleged present problem.